If Paulie's year last year means nothing then I guess it's impossible to combat your point.

 

I'm basically saying that the extra 6M in 2013 is worth it to me if it means I'm getting the better player. PK does his damage against AL pitching. Lee should do better against NL pitching if he's going to be my 1B on a championship team.

 

Great organizations very often have to pay a guy an extra year who may be past his prime. If you are a team with a dedication to winning-level payroll year in year out, that is one of the risks.

 

I'm not saying you pile up crappy contracts, but as someone said earlier, right now we have this 2014-2020 payment and the money we're on the hook for regarding Linebrink. Over time, that's not a lot for someone like JR.

DLee was fantastic against NL pitching, and has been just as good vs. AL pitching. Dlee is a more complete player, and will most likely be worth more than Konerko.

Edited December 8, 201015 yr by bigruss22

I'm basically saying that the extra 6M in 2013 is worth it to me if it means I'm getting the better player. PK does his damage against AL pitching. Lee should do better against NL pitching if he's going to be my 1B on a championship team.

 

Just wondering, why exactly is it harder to hit AL pitching than NL pitching? The talent is just as good, if not better, in the NL.

I'm saying you should only be willing to pay the player for what you think he is capable of over the life of the contract. Not what he did last year or the year before that. PK's home runs from last year will achieve nothing for the 2011 team. And yet teams pay for past performance all the time.

 

Well honestly I would respect a GM that runs their team that way, but do you want to have a respectable strategy, or have a strategy similar to those of several consistently winning organizations? I have to look at winning teams that stray from the bargain spending philosophy and still win. They pay what it takes to keep their target from going to another team. I want to be one of those organizations.

 

I'd side with you if I doubted JR was committed to winning and paying, but right now he's possibly going to set our payroll record, so I am hopeful for 2011-2013. We're not a bunch of over the hill guys. There's a lot of in-their-prime on this roster.

Well honestly I would respect a GM that runs their team that way, but do you want to have a respectable strategy, or have a strategy similar to those of several consistently winning organizations? I have to look at winning teams that stray from the bargain spending philosophy and still win. They pay what it takes to keep their target from going to another team. I want to be one of those organizations.

 

I'd side with you if I doubted JR was committed to winning and paying, but right now he's possibly going to set our payroll record, so I am hopeful for 2011-2013. We're not a bunch of over the hill guys. There's a lot of in-their-prime on this roster.

Unless, of course, they target the wrong player and it comes back to screw them. Than no, I don't want my team to be like that.

Unless, of course, they target the wrong player and it comes back to screw them. Than no, I don't want my team to be like that.

 

I guess. But it's funny that this debate crops up regarding Konerko vs. D-Lee, two guys who are the same age and very simliar stat-wise. I like the one with the more recent great year, i'd pay extra if i'm sure my owner is willing to keep payroll high... but that is I guess me.

Edited December 8, 201015 yr by Princess Dye

Eh, I guess we needed to give him 3. Whatever. Now our offense is set.

Just wondering, why exactly is it harder to hit AL pitching than NL pitching? The talent is just as good, if not better, in the NL.

 

Everybody knows it's much easier to hit Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt, Cole Hamels, Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Ubaldo Jiminez, Josh Johnson, Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright, Yovani Gallardo, Johan Santana and Daniel Hudson. Yes, I know one doesn't belong.

Really glad were getting Paul back. Lets sign a couple cheap arms now.

I guess. But it's funny that this debate crops up regarding Konerko vs. D-Lee, two guys who are the same age and very simliar stat-wise. I like the one with the more recent great year, i'd pay a little extra if i'm sure my owner is willing to keep payroll high... but that is I guess me.

Did you see DLees great 2009??

 

You're paying more for a lesser player with defense in consideration. If you're fine with an obvious fan bias getting in your way I guess this discussion is lost.

Did you see DLees great 2009??

 

You're paying more for a lesser player with defense in consideration. If you're fine with an obvious fan bias getting in your way I guess this discussion is lost.

 

I saw Lee's '09 but with older players I'm sure a FO doesn't like seeing a sign of deterioriation, be it injury related or not.

 

I actually am not this huge Paulie fan, either. I wanted Lee for 2yr/16M. We'll see what he gets and if it's giant savings or not.

Now that I know Konerko's getting differed money in 2013, I feel a bit better about this.

Did you see DLees great 2009??

 

You're paying more for a lesser player with defense in consideration. If you're fine with an obvious fan bias getting in your way I guess this discussion is lost.

I highly doubt it's just White Sox fans that value Konerko over Lee at this point in their careers. In fact, most of my friends are Detroit fans, and I can definitively tell you that supporting this contract is not "obvious fan bias", it's rational thought around the country. Not that favoring DLee is irrational, but saying that supporting this contract is homerism is just incorrect.

This is kind of on a tangent, but lets discuss JR and how he runs the team.

 

For years my Cub fan friends wanted a crazy, old rich guy to own their team. JR definitely fits that bill.

 

Last year we see he's willing to throw millions from out of nowhere at the last second to get Damon. But then we don't see that money get put into the team somewhere else before spring training.

 

This year, they seem to be setting us up for one thing, and then suddenly they hike payroll up to record setting levels. Yes maybe some of that was emotion-driven, but it was still for a player coming off MVP candidacy.

 

Maybe I'm naive but I basically don't worry about 2013 because we have one of those owners who (yes, sporadically) will just throw a bunch more $ at the problem. And this time it comes off a down year in attendance.

 

What needs to improve is how KW sometimes spends that money, and thats an entirely different problem.

 

 

Maybe that's why I don't care enough about 2013's $6M. That, and the fact that I can't (unlike others) assume D-Lee is going to find that pop he used to have. A lot of what you guys say makes sense, but that part of it you have to admit is hope-based. That he returns to '09 form. His 19 HR from '10: not enough.

Edited December 8, 201015 yr by Princess Dye

I highly doubt it's just White Sox fans that value Konerko over Lee at this point in their careers. In fact, most of my friends are Detroit fans, and I can definitively tell you that supporting this contract is not "obvious fan bias", it's rational thought around the country. Not that favoring DLee is irrational, but saying that supporting this contract is homerism is just incorrect.

I don't value the opinions of other fans around the country any more than I do our own...in fact, I value the opinion of our own fans more since they actually see the player every day. But that doesn't mean squat. Things like this tend to be hindsight = 20/20. Everyone will be praising this contract if PK stays healthy and performs and cursing it if he doesn't.

I don't value the opinions of other fans around the country any more than I do our own...in fact, I value the opinion of our own fans more since they actually see the player every day. But that doesn't mean squat. Things like this tend to be hindsight = 20/20. Everyone will be praising this contract if PK stays healthy and performs and cursing it if he doesn't.

You'll never see me curse this contract no matter what he does over the next three years. This was the right move at the time and will continue to be regardless of his future performance. No one can be 100% sure what a player will do in the next three years.

This is kind of on a tangent, but lets discuss JR and how he runs the team.

 

For years my Cub fan friends wanted a crazy, old rich guy to own their team. JR definitely fits that bill.

 

Last year we see he's willing to throw millions from out of nowhere at the last second to get Damon. But then we don't see that money get put into the team somewhere else before spring training.

 

This year, they seem to be setting us up for one thing, and then suddenly they hike payroll up to record setting levels. Yes maybe some of that was emotion-driven, but it was still for a player coming off MVP candidacy.

 

Maybe I'm naive but I basically don't worry about 2013 because we have one of those owners who (yes, sporadically) will just throw a bunch more $ at the problem. And this time it comes off a down year in attendance.

 

What needs to improve is how KW sometimes spends that money, and thats an entirely different problem.

 

 

Maybe that's why I don't care enough about 2013's $6M. That, and the fact that I can't (unlike others) assume D-Lee is going to find that pop he used to have. A lot of what you guys say makes sense, but that part of it you have to admit is hope-based. That he returns to '09 form. His 19 HR from '10: not enough.

Jerry Reinsdorf is not a crazy rich old guy. He is very calculated in what he does. I think he is stretching things right now but he feels that the opportunity is their in this major market to make it work and turn in a profit. The business will probably take a loss, however, the Sox have continued to reinvest funds but at the same time have seen the franchise appreciate.

 

I think Jerry knows that in his old age he wants to win and I'm guessing the rest of the ownership group does as well. They won't get crazy but I think at this point in time they felt these players were worth going "all in" for.

 

What will happen with our bullpen, I don't know. But one thing about bullpens is they are much more of a crap shoot than offensive players. So with that said, I'm glad we invested our money in a guy that has been a relatively constent run producer throughout his career and I can hope that our young arms in the pen, along with Thornty, can pan out. If they don't, we can invest some money in the pen.

 

My bigger concern to be quite frank is Peavy since we don't have a 5th starter as of now, especially if we are going with Sale in our pen. Plus, a healthy Jake Peavy (major if) makes this team a lot better.

How close was free-agent first baseman Paul Konerko to signing with the Diamondbacks?

 

 

Closer than you might think.

 

 

Both Konerko’s agent, Craig Landis, and White Sox officials say that the turning point in the negotiations occurred Tuesday night when the team agreed to guarantee Konerko a third year.

 

 

Before that, the White Sox had been offering two years and a club option. The Diamondbacks’ first offer was three years, $30 million.

 

 

Konerko planned to visit the Diamondbacks next week to escalate negotiations if the White Sox did not improve their proposal, according to a source with knowledge of the discussions.

 

 

“He was very tempted,” Landis said. “(The D-Backs) clearly were his second choice. We had already made up our mind that if things broke down with the White Sox, the next thing we were going to do was get more serious and engage the Diamondbacks to accomplish a three-year deal for Paul in Arizona.”

 

 

The White Sox ultimately signed Konerko to a three-year, $37.5 million contract with heavy deferrals in the third year. Konerko will earn $12 million in both 2011 and ’12, $6.5 million in ’13 and $1 million per year from ’14 to ’20.

 

 

The Rangers were Konerko’s third choice – no offer was made, but the two sides discussed the parameters of a deal, Landis said. The Orioles showed interest, but were never a serious contender.

 

 

-Ken Rosenthal

The first base scene has gone in the following order this offseason:

 

AGon to Boston

Fielder rumors abound

Konerko signs

Pena signs

Buzz about LaRoche

 

I think someone mentioned that DLee was mentioned at some point outside of this board, but I can't confirm that.

 

There's a descending order to that list, probably because that's how all of baseball sees these players' values. It's not homerism, it's just not.

Jerry Reinsdorf is not a crazy rich old guy.

 

"crazy" meant more for exaggeration purposes.

The first base scene has gone in the following order this offseason:

 

AGon to Boston

Fielder rumors abound

Konerko signs

Pena signs

Buzz about LaRoche

 

I think someone mentioned that DLee was mentioned at some point outside of this board, but I can't confirm that.

 

There's a descending order to that list, probably because that's how all of baseball sees these players' values. It's not homerism, it's just not.

It started with Adam Dunn signing with the White Sox.

It started with Adam Dunn signing with the White Sox.

Oh, right, I pretty much think of him as a DH. Point taken, though.

It started with Adam Dunn signing with the White Sox.

 

 

And Pena signed before Paulie, I am willing to bet Derrek Lee will have a better season than Carlos Pena.

Ran the lineup of

1. Pierre

2. Beckham

3. Rios

4. Dunn

5. Konerko

6. Quentin

7. Pierzynski

8. Ramirez

9. Morel

 

through a lineup optimizer with Bill James' optimistic forecasts (although these were released before they knew where Dunn would go).

 

Link

 

That lineup yields 5.15 runs per game. Over the course of a year, that's 835 runs, 80 or so more than last year. The best lineup (with Gordon leading off and Dunn hitting second) yields 5.23 runs per game.

Ozzie's lineup optimizer:

 

And Pena signed before Paulie, I am willing to bet Derrek Lee will have a better season than Carlos Pena.

I don't think the rest of MLB agrees.

 

I just don't get how anyone can ASSUME that an aged player will bounce back after a dismal season. Based on what? A hunch? Because people have done it before? I just don't see how you can justify a DLee signing unless it's very cheap, and even then it's not a slam-dunk that it's better than signing the more proven guy.