Kalapse Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This is big: @JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman big blow for #tigers. team announces v-mart has suffered torn acl. Probably lost for the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jan 17, 2012 -> 02:25 PM) This is big: @JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman big blow for #tigers. team announces v-mart has suffered torn acl. Whoa!!! Time to go All In again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman surgery on left knee is anticipated for v-mart, team says. if it is required as believed, he will likely miss '12 season. #tigers JHamrahi Joe Hamrahi Ouch...Victor Martinez tore his ACL in his left knee and is likely out for 2012 beckjason Jason Beck #Tigers announce Victor Martinez has suffered torn ACL. Surgery would likely sideline him for the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jan 17, 2012 -> 03:25 PM) This is big: @JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman big blow for #tigers. team announces v-mart has suffered torn acl. Probably lost for the year. Doing what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 DKnobler DKnobler Tigers say Martinez was hurt during winter conditioning, getting second opinion soon DKnobler DKnobler Bad news for Tigers, with Victor Martinez likely out all year in 2012 after knee injury JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman tigers say victor martinez suffered torn acl during winter conditioning. noted surgeon richard steadman to re-evaluate soon. jonmorosi Jon Morosi Before the Victor Martinez news, I thought #Tigers were about the surest bet to win the division of any team in baseball this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 17, 2012 -> 02:30 PM) jonmorosi Jon Morosi Before the Victor Martinez news, I thought #Tigers were about the surest bet to win the division of any team in baseball this year. They are still the favorites, but it definitely opens a window for the other teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 jonmorosi Jon Morosi Much more likely this spurs #Tigers to be more interested in Yoenis Cespedes. Could get more athletic in OF and move Delmon Young to DH. jonmorosi Jon Morosi Prince Fielder has said numerous times that he does not want to be a DH. So that’s that. #Tigers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jan 17, 2012 -> 03:30 PM) Doing what? Offseason conditioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jan 17, 2012 -> 03:43 PM) Offseason conditioning. Is that like riding a snow machine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jan 17, 2012 -> 02:43 PM) Offseason conditioning. Isn't that what Starlin Castro was doing with that chick in his apartment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 17, 2012 -> 03:50 PM) Isn't that what Starlin Castro was doing with that chick in his apartment? Buh Bump Bump! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 http://www.freep.com/article/20120117/SPOR...ews|text|Sports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Rotoworld brought it up, but Carlos Pena makes a lot of sense now. Anybody thinking that this will increase their efforts to sign Cespedes or Fielder is dumb...they still have Victor for 2 more years after this and, had they signed Fielder, would have 4 guys for 3 spots (Cabrera, Fielder, Martinez, and Avila), though that would be a fun offense to watch. And if they were going to go after Cespedes, they were always going to go after him and this really wouldn't affect that this much. Pena makes a lot of sense because he can almost certainly be had on a 1 year deal and, if they get lucky and he hits for a bit of average too, he's a nice player to have in the middle of that lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ginger Kid Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 wow, huge blow. What a clutch hitter he was last season with RISP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunofgold Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 We have a shot in this division. We do. However, so do the Royals, Twins, and Indians. Tigers will probably be dealing with some injuries and tired arms. Al Al is out for awhile as well. I think Martinez also hurt himself during the playoffs last year. Peralta, Verlander, and their closer all had career years last year which will be tough for them to repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 17, 2012 -> 04:36 PM) Rotoworld brought it up, but Carlos Pena makes a lot of sense now. Anybody thinking that this will increase their efforts to sign Cespedes or Fielder is dumb...they still have Victor for 2 more years after this and, had they signed Fielder, would have 4 guys for 3 spots (Cabrera, Fielder, Martinez, and Avila), though that would be a fun offense to watch. And if they were going to go after Cespedes, they were always going to go after him and this really wouldn't affect that this much. Pena makes a lot of sense because he can almost certainly be had on a 1 year deal and, if they get lucky and he hits for a bit of average too, he's a nice player to have in the middle of that lineup. They should be more familiar with him than nearly anyone, and he'd probably be more comfortable back in DET compared to New York City. But the allure of those RF bleachers in the Bronx (see Damon, J.), if he really wants to put up huge offensive numbers and bid for a multi-year deal in 2013, then the Yankees might be the better destination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySox Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Fangraphs take. Catching is supposed to be the activity that slowly robs young men of their athleticism, but it was training that felled Victor Martinez. After keeping his legs fresh while being a primary catcher for seven years, the 33-year-old tore his ACL while ramping up his regimen for the coming season. Injuries can come at any time, and now the Tigers have a hole in their lineup that they need to fill. How might they fill that hole? It’s not the hole of a departing super-star, not any more. His bat can still give the team twenty runs of production at the plate, but his defense and base-running have slowly pushed him down from his five-win peak down to a more average neighborhood. With Alex Avila‘s competence behind the plate, and Gerald Laird in house to be the backup, the Tigers are looking to try and replace about two-and-a-half wins of offense out of their designated hitter position. In-house, a platoon DH option might be able to approximate a lesser version of Martinez, minus the occasional turn behind the plate. Ryan Raburn is a righty that has so far shown a wicked platoon split and, in almost 800 innings at second base, poor infield defense (-23.8 UZR/150). Overall, Raburn has shown some problems with making contact and showing power consistently, but against lefties, he has a career 22% strikeout rate and a .237 ISO. That’s 632 PAs of 123 wRC+ offense that can play at least a quarter of the time. Overall, Don Kelly has a similarly unimpressive line, as he’s shown very little patience or power at the plate. Limit the 31-year-old lefty to facing only righties, though, and he’s slightly more palatable. He’s shown an ISO over .144 with his contact-heavy approach against righties over the past two years, at least. If you follow the maxim, “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all,” you might notice how short the list of Kelly’s positive attributes was. If they can almost fill V-Mart’s 125-130 wRC+ a quarter of the time by slotting in Raburn, they’re still looking at a bit of a hole from the left side of the plate. Luckily, there’s a platoon slugger out there on the market that could help: Carlos Pena. Though the lefty has seen his work against southpaws dwindle to a 59 wRC+ last year, he’s still able to turn on offerings from right-handers. Over the last three years, he’s averaged a 130 wRC+ against them even, with a strikeout rate closer to 25% than 30% and an ISO closer to .250 than .200. Though we are talking about replacing a designated hitter, Pena does also offer a strong glove. Before the last three years, he put together a string of seasons with positive defensive metrics, and his defense has always been well-regarded. He may not push the slower Miguel Cabrera to DH every day, but he would offer some value on that side of the ball. Squint and you could see a Raburn/Pena platoon managing offense that would be about 20% better than league average, along with about as much value with the glove as Martinez offered. So, they’re fine? Well, there’s a big difference between Martinez and Raburn/Pena: While Martinez walks at about an average rate and strikes out only about 10% of the time — with barely above-average power — Raburn and Pena are more likely to strike out 25% of the time collectively, with above-average walk rates and good power numbers. How will that change the team dynamic? The Tigers struck out 18.3% of the time last year, fifth-worst in the American League. Their 8.4% walk rate was fifth-best. Their .157 ISO was sixth-best. Since this move will increase their strikeouts and walks and power, it might be a wash in terms of overall team structure, but it’s obvious that this wouldn’t be their preferred approach to 2012. Their strikeout rate was already in the bottom half of the league, and now it’s likely to get worse. They used to have a high-contact hitter in the fifth slot, ready to drive in runs (Martinez had 103 RBI in 595 PAs), and now they’ll watch more whiffs in the same slot (Pena hasn’t managed more than 84 RBI in his last two seasons). The complexion of the lineup will change. On the other hand, the Tigers placed in the bottom half of the league in fielding and baserunning, too. Keeping Raburn out of the infield and replacing V-Mart as a baserunner with the slightly-more-fleet-of-foot Pena should be worth a few runs. The fans projected Martinez for 2.5 wins in 2012 and this new — different — platoon should be able to fill those shoes. Unfortunately, another popular left-handed former Tiger that has been suggested as a possible replacement — Johnny Damon — only has a lieftime 114 wRC+ against righties and that’s dwindled off a peak. If it’s not Pena, the team will certainly feel the loss at the plate. It may not look the same, and Tigers fans will miss Martinez’ smile — and his son, if rehab takes them away from the team — but a little platoon creativity and a timely free agent signing should help them replace his production. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/h...ictor-martinez/ I agree with it for the most part. There are options, and if the Tigers are smart and/or creative with what they do, his absence won't be as pronounced as many people think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 But you simply can't measure that "clutch" factor and how many times Martinez has historically come up big in RBI situations... On paper, you can replace him (ala Moneyball theory). But it's just not the same when the opposing pitcher looks at that line-up and sees Martinez not in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 17, 2012 -> 11:14 PM) But you simply can't measure that "clutch" factor and how many times Martinez has historically come up big in RBI situations... On paper, you can replace him (ala Moneyball theory). But it's just not the same when the opposing pitcher looks at that line-up and sees Martinez not in it. You can't measure something that's non-existent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 17, 2012 -> 10:14 PM) But you simply can't measure that "clutch" factor and how many times Martinez has historically come up big in RBI situations... On paper, you can replace him (ala Moneyball theory). But it's just not the same when the opposing pitcher looks at that line-up and sees Martinez not in it. This. Whether "clutch" is measurable/existent or not, several years of the eye test tell me that Miggy will have far less protection this season. If it's Pena or virtually anyone else replacing VMart, the Cabrera pitcharound will be the completely obvious move. We might even see Miggy pressing a bit, eventually, as the lack of protection becomes frustrating. Yes, they have other bats, but none that strike fear ala Martinez. Huge loss for them. Edited January 18, 2012 by Stan Bahnsen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 jaysonst Jayson Stark Boy, Victor Martinez is in for a long haul. Needed microfracture & meniscus surgery. Won't be ready to have his ACL repaired for 6-8 weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 30, 2012 -> 11:43 AM) jaysonst Jayson Stark Boy, Victor Martinez is in for a long haul. Needed microfracture & meniscus surgery. Won't be ready to have his ACL repaired for 6-8 weeks. So much for him being back in September. I thought for sure he'd magically heal by then. Did they ever report how he injured himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 30, 2012 -> 11:43 AM) jaysonst Jayson Stark Boy, Victor Martinez is in for a long haul. Needed microfracture & meniscus surgery. Won't be ready to have his ACL repaired for 6-8 weeks. There is something weird here. You don't do a meniscus surgery prior to an ACL reconstruction. They are done concurrently because of the healing time. It is counter-productive to be immobilized prior to ACL replacement. The microfracture procedure is done to enhance the healing of the cartilage which covers the ends of the bones (hyaline cartilage not meniscal cartilage). With these procedures there must be some articular cartilage damage that is more serious than the ACL injury. It's good bet his catching days are over. So if he returns next year the 1B/DH positions will be crowded unless he makes the transition to OF ala Fisk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 You lost me after the first sentence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 30, 2012 -> 02:46 PM) You lost me after the first sentence! The microfracture procedure has nothing to do with an ACL surgery. It's done on cartilage damage similar to arthritis. So he has a lot more going on than just an ACL tear. The ACL is minor compared to the other damage which will probably prevent him from catching again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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