Time to revisit the 2nd Amendment?

[Quin]

that clearly would have been a better response. so i agree with you there.

 

At least we agree there.

 

And if Reddy's intent was to make it left-right, then it's on him too.

 

But back to issue at hand. Is way stricter regulation really a bad thing?

[Jenksismyhero]

I think the 2nd amendment is actually quite a bit more broad than where current interpretation stands, and that if we want sane gun regulations or even to keep current regulations (NFA/machine gun ban) constitutional, we do need to revisit an amendment written in the 1790's based on 1790's technology and society.

 

That doesn't mean we need to ban guns, but we can't have a sane conversation about guns in this country as long as we have the 2nd, imo.

 

And that's all fine and good and I agree. Let's have that discussion. But we all know guns will never be outright banned in this country because our entire history revolves around personal freedoms and the barrier between us and our government. We're not Japan or the UK. We don't tolerate nearly as much government oversight, even if we could get an extra 1-5% increase in our safety.

 

So the real question is, since we will never get a full ban, would any reasonable restriction actually stop a tragedy like today? IMO, not likely, and not enough to start imposing unreasonable demands on the 99.9% of law abiding gun owners.

[Wanne]

Anybody stop and wonder how these things are suddenly cropping up so commonly? Wisconsin, Colorado, recently Oregon, among other places...and while shocking have pretty much been met with no complete outrage for strict gun control after the first week or so. So the level or carnage had to be amped up and hit home...children at a school. Look...I'm as outraged by this as anybody...it's horrible beyond comprehension...but I'm sure this will cause the outrage that will finally get SOMEONE'S AGENDA of disarming law-abiding American citizens rolling. Meanwhile...criminals and crazies will still have guns. Don't blame the NRA or all the other law abiding gun owning citizens. This is absolutely horrific...

 

So yes...as horrific as all of this is...it's children for god sakes! It does stir my conspiracy theorist mind. It's just becomes way too commonplace. Some loner with a screw loose is ALWAYS the story. Waiting for this story to unfold...but I suspect this person(s) storyline is much along the same line as the kid in Colorado or anyplace else. I do think there are other forces in place here that are trying to propel the complete gun control agenda...and this was the final act. Flame away...but I trust our government/CIA covert crap and their agendas as much as I trust my worst enemy.

 

You're just going to eliminate the guns that are out there right now?!?...good luck with that. People that don't comply?...I guess that's what the FEMA camps are for. If you want to ban the sale of them now...go ahead...but trying to confiscate will be a joke and a nightmare. But the government's agenda of disarming the American public is being put into high gear now given this event.

 

[Y2HH]

My point is rather simple...anyone that has a hand gun in Chicago, obviously has no care for gun laws, or they wouldn't have it here...

 

Is it too easy to obtain them elsewhere and bring them into Chicago? Yes. This cannot be denied. However, that still doesn't dismiss the fact they're bringing them here illegally, across state/county/city borders.

 

I think laws should be harsher on anyone that has illegal guns. I have no problem with this. I also I think stores that are linked to selling guns often used in crimes should be shut down. I have no problem with proper restrictions. But this sudden want to pretend as if all the guns out there will suddenly disappear overnight is inane.

 

1) We have a f***ing gang problem in this country. A huge one. Start taking care of that and a lot of these other problems would seemingly disappear.

 

2) WAY harsher penalties to anyone caught with a gun illegally, whether they used it or not.

 

3) Restrictions can be place on legal gun shops from selling guns to anyone out of state to avoid them not knowing the other states laws on gun ownership.

 

4) All guns should be registered.

 

5) Criminals will find a way, and not follow any of those laws.

[StrangeSox]

And that's all fine and good and I agree. Let's have that discussion. But we all know guns will never be outright banned in this country because our entire history revolves around personal freedoms and the barrier between us and our government. We're not Japan or the UK. We don't tolerate nearly as much government oversight, even if we could get an extra 1-5% increase in our safety.

 

So the real question is, since we will never get a full ban, would any reasonable restriction actually stop a tragedy like today? IMO, not likely, and not enough to start imposing unreasonable demands on the 99.9% of law abiding gun owners.

 

up until today, this guy was (likely) a law-abiding gun owner. that's exactly the problem with the framing on any gun conversation.

[Y2HH]

Drugs, of which alcohol is one, do not represent the same type of demand as guns do. It isn't even close to comparable.

 

But "people willing to spend top dollar" for guns means that people have to spend top dollar and that when someone with schizophrenia goes off of their medication, there's not guns laying around all over the place for them to pick up and start shooting.

 

edit: I can make bathtub gin or beer or wine on my own pretty easily. my great-grandparents built a home in Kankakee to do exactly that! fermenting fruit or grain isn't that difficult. owning a machine shop and building guns is considerably more complex.

 

You make a solid point...while no, the market isn't the same...the fact is the market exists.

 

I think it's very possible that adding restrictions on the sale of legal guns, AND enforcement of their registration is of the utmost importance. The biggest problem is getting caught with a gun illegally doesn't carry nearly harsh enough punishment, especially when we add probation into the mix.

[StrangeSox]

Anybody stop and wonder how these things are suddenly cropping up so commonly? Wisconsin, Colorado, recently Oregon, among other places...and while shocking have pretty much been met with no complete outrage for strict gun control after the first week or so. So the level or carnage had to be amped up and hit home...children at a school. Look...I'm as outraged by this as anybody...it's horrible beyond comprehension...but I'm sure this will cause the outrage that will finally get SOMEONE'S AGENDA of disarming law-abiding American citizens rolling. Meanwhile...criminals and crazies will still have guns. Don't blame the NRA or all the other law abiding gun owning citizens. This is absolutely horrific...

 

So yes...as horrific as all of this is...it's children for god sakes! It does stir my conspiracy theorist mind. It's just becomes way too commonplace. Some loner with a screw loose is ALWAYS the story. Waiting for this story to unfold...but I suspect this person(s) storyline is much along the same line as the kid in Colorado or anyplace else. I do think there are other forces in place here that are trying to propel the complete gun control agenda...and this was the final act. Flame away...but I trust our government/CIA covert crap and their agendas as much as I trust my worst enemy.

 

You're just going to eliminate the guns that are out there right now?!?...good luck with that. People that don't comply?...I guess that's what the FEMA camps are for. If you want to ban the sale of them now...go ahead...but trying to confiscate will be a joke and a nightmare. But the government's agenda of disarming the American public is being put into high gear now given this event.

 

Remember when you said the same sort of crap after the Aurora, CO shootings, about how it was to swing votes for some UN resolution? Remember how wrong that was?

[mr_genius]

At least we agree there.

 

i'll delete the post.

[clyons]

Sportsmen want to have rifles and shotguns to hunt? Fine; I have no problem with that. Folks want to keep a pistol in the nightstand by the bed to ward off rapists and intruders? I don't have much of a problem with that either. But a society that allows psychos easy access to automatic weapons with extended magazines, the sole purpose of which is to kill lots of people fast, is horribly broken and needs to be fixed. Why that remains controversial to anyone is beyond me. I don't know what the ultimate solution is, but reinstatement of the assault weapons ban would be a good start.

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Trucks from Mexico and a guy on the corner that can sell you an illegal handgun? Are gangs going to start outdancing and outsinging the other? You guys are completely delusional if you think making gun ownership illegal would magically cure this problem or even put a dent into it.

So you suggest everything remain the same or find a way to arm everyone? Something has to change. Again, no one really knows if it would have made a difference today, but you really have to be in denial if you think it wouldn't make a difference any day.

[StrangeSox]

You make a solid point...while no, the market isn't the same...the fact is the market exists.

 

Prohibition actually did repress alcohol consumption (didn't know, had to google) to about 70% once it steadied out:

 

http://www.nber.org/papers/w3675.pdf

[Jenksismyhero]

Drugs, of which alcohol is one, do not represent the same type of demand as guns do. It isn't even close to comparable.

 

But "people willing to spend top dollar" for guns means that people have to spend top dollar and that when someone with schizophrenia goes off of their medication, there's not guns laying around all over the place for them to pick up and start shooting.

 

edit: I can make bathtub gin or beer or wine on my own pretty easily. my great-grandparents built a home in Kankakee to do exactly that! fermenting fruit or grain isn't that difficult. owning a machine shop and building guns is considerably more complex.

 

IIRC the vast majority of prohibition alcohol was smuggled in, not made in bathtubs. The same would happen with guns. Ok so fine, maybe you make a dent on the random killings (which are still rare and random) but you're not stopping these major tragedies.

[StrangeSox]

Sportsmen want to have rifles and shotguns to hunt? Fine; I have no problem with that. Folks want to keep a pistol in the nightstand by the bed to ward off rapists and intruders? I don't have much of a problem with that either. But a society that allows psychos easy access to automatic weapons with extended magazines, the sole purpose of which is to kill lots of people fast, is horribly broken and needs to be fixed. Why that remains controversial to anyone is beyond me. I don't know what the ultimate solution is, but reinstatement of the assault weapons ban would be a good start.

 

We don't. The NFA of the 30's and the later act in the 80's severely restricts ownership of automatic weapons. Only two legally owned ones have been used in crimes since the 30's, and even illegally owned ones are used very rarely. It's a solid point in favor of the possibilities of restrictions, imo.

[StrangeSox]

IIRC the vast majority of prohibition alcohol was smuggled in, not made in bathtubs. The same would happen with guns. Ok so fine, maybe you make a dent on the random killings (which are still rare and random) but you're not stopping these major tragedies.

 

How can you say that with any sort of certainty? You have no idea if this guy just snapped today, grabbed his legally owned guns, and went shooting.

[clyons]

We don't. The NFA of the 30's and the later act in the 80's severely restricts ownership of automatic weapons. Only two legally owned ones have been used in crimes since the 30's, and even illegally owned ones are used very rarely. It's a solid point in favor of the possibilities of restrictions, imo.

 

Reports are this guy used a Sig and a Glock. Those are automatic weapons, if not assualt weapons, are they not?

[Y2HH]

So you suggest everything remain the same or find a way to arm everyone? Something has to change. Again, no one really knows if it would have made a difference today, but you really have to be in denial if you think it wouldn't make a difference any day.

 

I agree with this...something has to change.

[Y2HH]

Reports are this guy used a Sig and a Glock. Those are automatic weapons, if not assualt weapons, are they not?

 

They're hand guns.

[Jenksismyhero]

So you suggest everything remain the same or find a way to arm everyone? Something has to change. Again, no one really knows if it would have made a difference today, but you really have to be in denial if you think it wouldn't make a difference any day.

 

Read my posts and you'll find my answer to this.

[clyons]

They're hand guns.

 

Yes, Automatic hand guns

[Y2HH]

Yes, Automatic hand guns

 

No.

 

Semi autos. Not the same.

[Jenksismyhero]

How can you say that with any sort of certainty? You have no idea if this guy just snapped today, grabbed his legally owned guns, and went shooting.

 

He put a vest on and grabbed more than one gun, and there's a body at his house (reportedly). That's not exactly "hey I think i'll go for a stroll today..."

[StrangeSox]

Reports are this guy used a Sig and a Glock. Those are automatic weapons, if not assualt weapons, are they not?

 

Unless they were illegally modified (and the Glock couldn't have been AFAIK but what I know about guns isn't that much!), they were not automatic weapons. I highly doubt they were anyway, and an unskilled shooter would be better off with a semi-automatic, anyway.

 

fully auto: pull the trigger, fires until its empty

semi-auto: pull the trigger, fires one round and automatically chambers the next. gotta pull again to fire another bullet.

non-auto: single-load guns (breach-load shotgun), lever-action repeaters, basically any gun where you have to do something to load another round.

[Y2HH]

A semi-automatic's trigger must be depressed for every round fired...it will automatically chamber another bullet, but it will not automatically fire it, until the magazine is emptied.

 

A fully automatic's trigger can be depressed once, and it will continuously fire and reload until the magazine is emptied.

[StrangeSox]

He put a vest on and grabbed more than one gun, and there's a body at his house (reportedly). That's not exactly "hey I think i'll go for a stroll today..."

So? Someone who's snapped but still has easy access to guns can easily do those sorts of things that someone who's snapped but does not have easy access to guns cannot. You don't need to plan something like this out if you have the guns laying around already just because.

[StrangeSox]

They're hand guns.

IIRC there's a .223 rifle involved as well

 

which, .223 + body armor = any moron making some sort of "gun free zones"/teachers should be armed argument needs to be hit in the face with something heavy.