The Wussification of America

[Reddy]

No, it paid $57k and a 15% potential bonus. It certainly wasn't a terrible compensation package. However, I did have to spend 6 months just learning about the industry before I could actually perform the job I was hired to do. I did give up the life I had in Chicago and all my friends and family and move clear across the country where I knew essentially no one. I did put the $100k education (which I took out school loans for, mind you) on hold to take a job in an entirely different field which I knew virtually nothing about.

 

Now I could have sat at home on my parents' couch and complained that I couldn't get a job as an attorney making a salary commensurate with my level of education. And I could have scoffed at the notion of taking a job making $40k, because "that is what I could have been making coming out of undergrad!" But I applied for all sorts of jobs in retail and the food and beverage industry, making essentially the same $36k I was making before I went back to undergrad, but was told I was overqualified. I took an unpaid job in a startup company. Ultimately, I realized the opportunities seemed few and far between and took the first good one I had, even though I had to move all the way across the country for it.

 

I realize there are plenty of people doing these things today, too. What I did, and what others did, is not some Herculean effort or anything. It is called taking responsibility for your lot in life. We'd like to see a lot of others do it too, instead of complaining so much, that's all.

what does someone DO with $57,000?

 

haha as someone who's breaking $20K for the first time at age 26 - I can't imagine what my quality of life would be like with 2.5x that. lol

[StrangeSox]

I understand there are people in poverty that do not include recent college grads refusing to work at the local Applebee's because it is beneath them. But that is a separate argument than the one being made in this thread. At least as far as I understand it.

 

The OP's original point seemed to be targeting those individuals that were of "average" income or above the poverty line. Maybe I was mistaken.

 

The OP was about a whole bunch of stuff, most of it not related to jobs.

 

eta: everyone should refuse to work at Applebees because that restaurant needs to die a horrible death

Edited January 21, 2013 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

what does someone DO with $57,000?

 

haha as someone who's breaking $20K for the first time at age 26 - I can't imagine what my quality of life would be like with 2.5x that. lol

 

I've seen articles or reports before that, no matter where you pick along the income line, people pretty reliably define 2x their income as "well-off."

[iamshack]

Ok, so it wasn't really comparable to a job paying less than half of that and that likely didn't offer any benefits. There's little incentive to undertake substantial changes in your life for a $12/hour job with a limited ceiling and that's always on the brink of being outsourced.

No, it wasn't a job for $12 an hour. And as I said, the lesser paying jobs that I did apply for, I was told I was overqualified for. What would you have me do? I actually applied for some jobs with a resume that did not include my legal education, because that seemed to frighten employers in many jobs.

 

But the same point remains. I took an enormous risk to try and be successful in less than even decent economic conditions. I made enormous sacrifices to try and make my own way in life. It really is pretty comparable.

 

In fact, I have been working almost nonstop (with the exception of maybe 2 years while I was in undergrad and law school) since I was 13. I worked full-time (and overtime in many cases) while in undergrad and law school.

 

You seem to diminish the success of those who have carved it out through hard work and sacrifice while focusing an abnormal amount of empathy upon those who have done little or nothing...this seems to be a somewhat consistent theme in your posts.

Edited January 21, 2013 by iamshack

[Jenksismyhero]

No, it wasn't a job for $12 an hour. And as I said, the lesser paying jobs that I did apply for, I was told I was overqualified for. What would you have me do? I actually applied for some jobs with a resume that did not include my legal education, because that seemed to frighten employers in many jobs.

 

But the same point remains. I took an enormous risk to try and be successful in less than even decent economic conditions. I made enormous sacrifices to try and make my own way in life. It really is pretty comparable.

 

In fact, I have been working almost nonstop (with the exception of maybe 2 years while I was in undergrad and law school) since I was 13. I worked full-time (and overtime in many cases) while in undergrad and law school.

 

You seem to diminish the success of those who have carved it out through hard work and sacrifice while focusing an abnormal amount of empathy upon those who have done little or nothing...this seems to be a somewhat consistent theme in your posts.

 

You just don't get it man, you are priveleged, "they" are not. Don't you see the difference?

 

This thread has been entertaining to read the last few days. Gotta say, I agree with the "wussification" point in the sense that political correctness/fear of offending anyone has meant that for the 85-90% of the country who are alike and share the same traditions and beliefs, we have to give in to those that are different. Instead of treating everyone equally, we allow our political leaders to just give up on those traditions/beliefs altogether, which is sad. Boys and can't be little boys anymore, Christmas has to be a holiday, etc. etc. Not sure why that point got lost and it switched to a class warfare discussion. Either way, YASNY I agree with your entire first post. Well done.

[StrangeSox]

No, it wasn't a job for $12 an hour. And as I said, the lesser paying jobs that I did apply for, I was told I was overqualified for. What would you have me do? I actually applied for some jobs with a resume that did not include my legal education, because that seemed to frighten employers in many jobs.

 

Nothing different, my point was that it's unsurprising that jobs paying $12/hour for skilled labor aren't being filled rapidly. Basic econ 101 S&D. There's little incentive there.

 

But the same point remains. I took an enormous risk to try and be successful in less than even decent economic conditions. I made enormous sacrifices to try and make my own way in life. It really is pretty comparable.

 

In fact, I have been working almost nonstop (with the exception of maybe 2 years while I was in undergrad and law school) since I was 13. I worked full-time (and overtime in many cases) while in undergrad and law school.

 

You seem to diminish the success of those who have carved it out through hard work and sacrifice while focusing an abnormal amount of empathy upon those who have done little or nothing...this seems to be a somewhat consistent theme in your posts.

 

Be happy with your own success, absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm happy with mine, but I also recognize privileges that have enabled me to succeed with the amount of work and effort I've put in where others have worked just as hard and still struggle daily. We get right back to square-one with your last sentence: that those who haven't been economically successful have done little or nothing. That's the consistent theme in my posts: plenty of people bust their asses just as hard as you but have s*** to show for it. I focus a large amount of empathy upon those who have been systematically disadvantaged and who are often judged by those who come from different backgrounds as being lazy and irresponsible, as having done little or nothing.

 

someone posted this in a pretty similar discussion on another mb recently (the concept of racial privileges were more in the focus of the discussion there)

whole lotta people work hard, some get somewhere because of it, some don't. white people working hard tend to find their way to a better life more often than black people working hard. you can see this by observing that black unemployment is higher than white unemployment at all education levels. somehow or another, it just keeps working out that way. so, i'm not really sure why i should care whether the observation that more often than not, all else being equal, whites are going to have an easier time navigating society than blacks, "irks" anyone who "worked hard." feel great about the hard work you did and what it got you. but don't pretend that, lurking behind the scenes, there is no vast cultural and social structure which operates such that your hard work would be less likely to get you to the same place if you were black.

[Y2HH]

what does someone DO with $57,000?

 

haha as someone who's breaking $20K for the first time at age 26 - I can't imagine what my quality of life would be like with 2.5x that. lol

 

It all depends on how much responsibility you have, and how many people you have depending on you.

 

57k isn't enough for me to even consider at this point in my life, but I'm also not a single guy with a single guys expenses. I have a stay at home wife, a daughter, and another one the way. I have to handle all of the the families expenses on my own. While most would see my current salary as huge, it's not all things considered...it's enough to get us by paycheck the paycheck with a little left over.

 

...and that said, if I lost my job, and the only job I could find paid 57k, I'd take it, and do whatever was necessary to cover our cost of living, including making sacrifices to be able to afford it. The first thing that'd be gone is our basic cable bill. I don't even have netflix. It's stuff like that, that on a single salary, we can't afford without going into the red. I refuse to live life in the red. If I can't afford something, such as having movie channels...we don't have it. This is something that I see most people these days don't do. They simply live in debt, out of choice...NOT out of necessity.

[iamshack]

Nothing different, my point was that it's unsurprising that jobs paying $12/hour for skilled labor aren't being filled rapidly. Basic econ 101 S&D. There's little incentive there.

 

 

 

Be happy with your own success, absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'm happy with mine, but I also recognize privileges that have enabled me to succeed with the amount of work and effort I've put in where others have worked just as hard and still struggle daily. We get right back to square-one with your last sentence: that those who haven't been economically successful have done little or nothing. That's the consistent theme in my posts: plenty of people bust their asses just as hard as you but have s*** to show for it. I focus a large amount of empathy upon those who have been systematically disadvantaged and who are often judged by those who come from different backgrounds as being lazy and irresponsible, as having done little or nothing.

 

someone posted this in a pretty similar discussion on another mb recently (the concept of racial privileges were more in the focus of the discussion there)

Yes, I understand...and Y2H and I have tried to point out a few times now, that we do agree with some of your points, but that we are focusing more on those that are not working hard or doing all they can do improve their lot in life. We are focusing on those that have the ability to improve but don't seem to have the interest or the desire to do so.

 

I suppose where we draw the lines around which people to encompass these groups is probably a large point of contention.

 

I will say this much...in this day and age of information, it is easier to cause self-improvement than at any other time than in modern history. Access to information is much more eqaul than it has been in the past. Hopefully, that will help some of those who have been disadvantaged to overcome some of those disadvantages and to become successful and happy individuals. However, I do think that takes someone willing to throw off any excuses and forge ahead with a determination that is fairly uncommon in many people.

Edited January 21, 2013 by iamshack

[Jenksismyhero]

what does someone DO with $57,000?

 

haha as someone who's breaking $20K for the first time at age 26 - I can't imagine what my quality of life would be like with 2.5x that. lol

 

Mo' money, mo' problems.

[Reddy]

It all depends on how much responsibility you have, and how many people you have depending on you.

 

57k isn't enough for me to even consider at this point in my life, but I'm also not a single guy with a single guys expenses. I have a stay at home wife, a daughter, and another one the way. I have to handle all of the the families expenses on my own. While most would see my current salary as huge, it's not all things considered...it's enough to get us by paycheck the paycheck with a little left over.

 

...and that said, if I lost my job, and the only job I could find paid 57k, I'd take it, and do whatever was necessary to cover our cost of living, including making sacrifices to be able to afford it. The first thing that'd be gone is our basic cable bill. I don't even have netflix. It's stuff like that, that on a single salary, we can't afford without going into the red. I refuse to live life in the red. If I can't afford something, such as having movie channels...we don't have it. This is something that I see most people these days don't do. They simply live in debt, out of choice...NOT out of necessity.

 

yes. obviously.

 

I was mostly being facetious.

 

[EvilMonkey]

...and that said, if I lost my job, and the only job I could find paid 57k, I'd take it, and do whatever was necessary to cover our cost of living, including making sacrifices to be able to afford it. The first thing that'd be gone is our basic cable bill. I don't even have netflix. It's stuff like that, that on a single salary, we can't afford without going into the red. I refuse to live life in the red. If I can't afford something, such as having movie channels...we don't have it. This is something that I see most people these days don't do. They simply live in debt, out of choice...NOT out of necessity.

Been there, done that. After closing my store, and 16 months of unemployment, took a job at Office Max making $10 per hour. Getting that was hard enough, as the manager feared i would jump ship first chance I got. So I promised him 6 months minimum, and in exchange he got someone to run his print area that he didn't have to babysit or worry about. It was a good tradeoff for both of us, as I trained 2 people to replace me, and almost 6 months to the day I got an offer from a resume I had sent out almost a year prior. Also did part time work as an alarm/security systems installer during the week for extra cash, 2-3 nights a week. Cancelled Netflix, XM and got rid of smart phone for a stupid phone. You do what you have to do. I applaud your commitment.

[Y2HH]

Been there, done that. After closing my store, and 16 months of unemployment, took a job at Office Max making $10 per hour. Getting that was hard enough, as the manager feared i would jump ship first chance I got. So I promised him 6 months minimum, and in exchange he got someone to run his print area that he didn't have to babysit or worry about. It was a good tradeoff for both of us, as I trained 2 people to replace me, and almost 6 months to the day I got an offer from a resume I had sent out almost a year prior. Also did part time work as an alarm/security systems installer during the week for extra cash, 2-3 nights a week. Cancelled Netflix, XM and got rid of smart phone for a stupid phone. You do what you have to do. I applaud your commitment.

 

I've been blessed enough in my life to be able to do the things we do as a family on a single salary, making the most of the opportunities presented to me up to this point. I really don't want to call it luck, because nobody made the career choices I made for me...they were decisions I made along the way to get where I am. A few wrong turns or bad choices, and things wouldn't be this way. And if they weren't this way, we'd have to make sacrifices. But some of those choices were choices we made because we considered the alternatives BEFORE making them. We didn't start a family right away because at the time, we couldn't afford it if one of us was to stay at home. When that time came (a few years later), we THEN started our family. Hopefully things continue as they have, so we can continue living the way in which we are. If and when we come to that crossroad, we'll have some careful decisions to make. But it wouldn't be anyones fault but our own. We chose to add risk in our lives by having a family.

[Iwritecode]

I made it to "Companies that want better workers need to pay more". That's just not how it works, at every job I've ever had you start out with a relatively low wage then prove yourself to be worth a higher wage. When you see a job for $11/hour dont look at that, think about how you can make it $16/hour within a couple years.

 

I had that same train of thought at my first job. But some companies start you out low and then give really low raises so you never really get anywhere.

 

When I first got hired I was making a relatively low salary of $26,000. Being only 20 years old and not even out of college, that was a lot of money to me. Divide it out and it's $12.50/hour When I got let go 11 years later I was making around $33,000. That's only $15.86/hour. So my pay increased a little over $3/hour over 11 years.

 

[caulfield12]

$12/hour is Chinese level wages? Is there another China I dont know about, like a secret borough of New York or a new Atlantis?

 

 

1500-2500 RMB per month is pretty standard for factory wages, like Apple/Foxconn in Guangdong Province.

 

Something like $250-400 per month, with no paid overtime and very few or little benefits (they're fighting for unionization, although right now it's limited to foreign enterprises operating within China and not Chinese-owned companies/factories).

 

You can do the math. The average is about $75 USD per week, $15 USD per day, $1.75-2.00 USD per hour.

 

I would imagine the most experienced (yet not over 40, where they become less productive or break down due to arthritis or other health related problems) workers might be making $3-4 USD per hour, but very unusual to be above that level.

[The Sir]

A gun free population isn't helpless nor completely controlled. Neither is an armed one. You know why?

 

"Oh, deed-a-lee-doo, just gonna go rebel against the country today. I have an assault rife, I'm ready."

Army: "Air strike ready? Oh, it's done? K, let's go get lunch."

 

Some quick comments against this:

 

1) I'm in the Army. Therefore, I know who's in the Army. And when the order comes out to shoot at American citizens on behalf of a tyrant, we're leaving. It'll be the last thing that "ruler" ever does.

 

2) Your attempts to be funny are overly simplistic. Ever heard of something called guerrilla warfare? Yeah, it happens all the time. Successfully, I might add. If the conditions ever fall into place, it will happen in America too. And any force trying to suppress that insurgency would have a hell of a time.

[The Sir]

But mainly...why are we afraid of a government takeover? Do you realize who runs the government? Who populates the military? The only way to "take over" is to win a war of ideas. I'm dubious that a radical change in ideology is possible in the information age, but regardless at this point the way gun advocates talk about their guns just alienates people. It alienates me, who wants to own guns.

 

What a dumb, dangerous thought. This is part of the reason why I own guns.

 

You can actually sit there and tell us that the only way to "take over" is to win a war of ideas? Are you kidding me? Do you have no understanding of history whatsoever? I can't believe someone said something this ignorant.

 

I couldn't care less if I alienate some goofball who just wishes people put down their guns and trust the government more. So be alienated. If that helps you leave me alone and let me live in peace, then I'm all the better for it.

[The Sir]

Simply put this is not true at all.

 

Wow. Confidence. May I ask what makes you so sure? Were you in the military?

[The Sir]

Guns are a hope for the weak and scared, for those that think somehow a weapon under their pillow will keep them safe from all the monsters in the night. You might as well put up a dream catcher while youre at it. You want to be brave, you want to be a real man, put down the weapon, you dont need it.

 

More dumbassery.

 

I don't carry a gun to be cool. I don't carry it because I'm a weak man who can't fight with his fists. I don't carry it because I want to be a real man (I'm in the army, you're a f***ing attorney, GTFO with this real man s***). And I don't carry it because I want to be brave (I'm in Afghanistan and you're still a lawyer, so GTFO again with this bravery s***).

 

I carry a gun because my life and my family's lives are the most important things to me. I hope I never have to shoot anyone in self defense. That would be awful. But when the threat arises, I'm not going to pin our survival on a fistfight, no matter how strong I might be or how well I know how to fight. I'm not going to hope that he is unarmed so I can overpower him or so I can run away like a little girl. When that threat comes up, I'm going to know from the second it arises that I have the upper hand. I'm not gonna leave any doubts about that. And I'm not gonna put down the weapon so I can show some limp-dick like you what a "real man" I am. This isn't about bravado or machismo. This is about my life. This is about my wife's life.

 

I'm getting tired of this "guns are for p*****s" argument from society's actual p*****s. Have you done a brave thing in your whole stupid life?

 

You wanna talk about real men.

 

YOU'RE A f***ING LAWYER.

 

Repeat that to yourself.

 

You wouldn't know a real man if he walked up and punched you in your damned face.

[Texsox]

Some quick comments against this:

 

1) I'm in the Army. Therefore, I know who's in the Army. And when the order comes out to shoot at American citizens on behalf of a tyrant, we're leaving. It'll be the last thing that "ruler" ever does.

 

2) Your attempts to be funny are overly simplistic. Ever heard of something called guerrilla warfare? Yeah, it happens all the time. Successfully, I might add. If the conditions ever fall into place, it will happen in America too. And any force trying to suppress that insurgency would have a hell of a time.

 

So do we need guns to protect us from the military or not? How scared are you of American citizens with weapons kicking your Army ass in a battle?

[Texsox]

More dumbassery.

 

I don't carry a gun to be cool. I don't carry it because I'm a weak man who can't fight with his fists. I don't carry it because I want to be a real man (I'm in the army, you're a f***ing attorney, GTFO with this real man s***). And I don't carry it because I want to be brave (I'm in Afghanistan and you're still a lawyer, so GTFO again with this bravery s***).

 

I carry a gun because my life and my family's lives are the most important things to me. I hope I never have to shoot anyone in self defense. That would be awful. But when the threat arises, I'm not going to pin our survival on a fistfight, no matter how strong I might be or how well I know how to fight. I'm not going to hope that he is unarmed so I can overpower him or so I can run away like a little girl. When that threat comes up, I'm going to know from the second it arises that I have the upper hand. I'm not gonna leave any doubts about that. And I'm not gonna put down the weapon so I can show some limp-dick like you what a "real man" I am. This isn't about bravado or machismo. This is about my life. This is about my wife's life.

 

I'm getting tired of this "guns are for p*****s" argument from society's actual p*****s. Have you done a brave thing in your whole stupid life?

 

You wanna talk about real men.

 

YOU'RE A f***ING LAWYER.

 

Repeat that to yourself.

 

You wouldn't know a real man if he walked up and punched you in your damned face.

Yeah, real men don't think! They don't have ideas! They kick ass, punch people and shoot guns. f***ing thinking is for women. We'll never catch you with ideas or thinking. No sir, you're a real man. And you can call someone a limp-dick because you carry a weapon, not like an attorney who would have to run away from you like a girl. It is funny that you hate a limp dick but presumably appreciate a nice hard dick. I appreciate the discipline that the Army has instilled in you. Is it officer's school where they teach you to yell insults and swear on the internet?

 

At least after some commie country kicks our militarily's butt YASNY and his buddies will have their guns to save us. We do need citizens armed to fight back when you fail. To fight back shen you turn your weapons on ordinary citizens like at Kent State. YASNY did a great job of explaining it.

[The Sir]

So do we need guns to protect us from the military or not? How scared are you of American citizens with weapons kicking your Army ass in a battle?

 

I wouldn't be in that battle. But for the soldiers who are, they should worry about an American insurgency as much as they worry about the Taliban insurgency or the Viet Cong insurgency.

[The Sir]

Yeah, real men don't think! They don't have ideas! They kick ass, punch people and shoot guns. f***ing thinking is for women.

We'll never catch you with ideas or thinking. No sir, you're a real man.

 

What the f*** does this post have to do with anything?

 

He challenged me to put down the guns and be a real man. I'm tired of this argument, because it's pleading with me to gamble with my life so I can be enlightened like him.

 

I hope I never have to draw my gun. I really do. It's there for situations when true danger arises. I'm a firm believer in the idea that it's better to have a gun and not need it than to need it and not have it. So I hope I never "need" it, but if I ever do, I'm not gonna be caught with my pants down because some lawyer jackass thinks real men operate based on mere intellectualism.

 

Yeah. Tell your home invader that you're a real man because you make deep thoughts. See how that works.

 

It's thoughts like that which make liberals seem like pompous elitists living in a fantasyland.

[Balta1701]

I carry a gun because my life and my family's lives are the most important things to me.

If that was the case, then you wouldn't have a gun anywhere near your family.

 

You carry a gun because emotionally you feel stronger. To the point where you're willing to ignore the piles of dead bodies, the study after study that says youre putting every one of your family's lives in jeopardy, and so on.

 

But again, we get the emotional reaction. The "I know I'm safer and you're dumbasses, look how manly I am, everyone should be scared of me!" response.

 

Maybe you're in a place where you have to shoo away coyotes, fine, have one locked up and used as a last resort. Great. But you said the word "Carry".

[Balta1701]

Yeah. Tell your home invader that you're a real man because you make deep thoughts. See how that works.

 

It's thoughts like that which make liberals seem like pompous elitists living in a fantasyland.

It's willingness to ignore everything else that happens with guns and focus solely on the one, incredibly rare situation of successful home invasion defense that makes us not trust the judgment of gun owners.

[StrangeSox]

I would not be opposed to carrying a gun if I were backpacking in bear country.