The Wussification of America

[Soxbadger]

And while we are on the subject, lets really get hardcore. Lets get rid of giving kids more time if they claim to have adhd or any other problem. No extensions, no retakes, nothing.

 

You want grades to really matter, you want to give out hilarious awards, make these kids actually earn them in an objective fashion.

 

Not because teacher X liked student Y and therefore gave him a good grade because he was a nice/hardworking kid. That just makes us all look stupid, because now I am being lumped in with him.

[Jenksismyhero]

And while we are on the subject, lets really get hardcore. Lets get rid of giving kids more time if they claim to have adhd or any other problem. No extensions, no retakes, nothing.

 

You want grades to really matter, you want to give out hilarious awards, make these kids actually earn them in an objective fashion.

 

Not because teacher X liked student Y and therefore gave him a good grade because he was a nice/hardworking kid. That just makes us all look stupid, because now I am being lumped in with him.

 

I don't even know how to respond to this. You're going to an extreme that's unnecessary.

[Soxbadger]

Most grades are not subjective. Writing, sure (even then i'm sure you'll have teachers debate this with you since most assignments have objective requirements that have to be met. Style is about the only subjective part of it). But math, science, grammar/vocab tests, etc are all objectively measured. You get the problem/question right or you don't.

 

Grading is also the best way for third parties to measure your intelligence. How else would colleges know if you're average or above average?

 

Completely untrue.

 

Best way is a standardized/objective test.

 

Why do you think the bar is a standardized test, as opposed to just allowing people in law school to become lawyers if they had good grades?

 

Its because grades are not a good indicator of actually understanding the material.

 

[Soxbadger]

I don't even know how to respond to this. You're going to an extreme that's unnecessary.

 

I was a super hardcore student. Could have probably been valedictorian if I wanted to play the game.

 

But I admit that grades were just a game. Teachers can easily be manipulated.

[Jenksismyhero]

Completely untrue.

 

Best way is a standardized/objective test.

 

Why do you think the bar is a standardized test, as opposed to just allowing people in law school to become lawyers if they had good grades?

 

Its because grades are not a good indicator of actually understanding the material.

 

Ok, how else would you do it? Interview teachers/counselors about a kids "real" intelligence? That'd be worse.

[StrangeSox]

But learning isn't rote memorization of facts or algorithms to solve math problems. Any problem beyond very basic mathematics or "fill in the blank" is going to be subjective and evaluate the student's abilities in multiple ways. Common Core, for all of its faults, gets away from not-exactly-useful testing and evaluation along those simplistic lines.

 

A writing assignment is still going to be subjective, too. Interpretation and application of the grading rubric as well as any quality assessment is going to vary for every individual grader.

[Jenksismyhero]

I was a super hardcore student. Could have probably been valedictorian if I wanted to play the game.

 

But I admit that grades were just a game. Teachers can easily be manipulated.

 

How can a math or science teacher do this when you're given a problem with only one correct answer? Except for english teachers who may or may not like your writing style (and again, that's not the entirety of the grade), who else can be manipulated?

 

 

[Soxbadger]

Ok, how else would you do it? Interview teachers/counselors about a kids "real" intelligence? That'd be worse.

 

Standardized test, like France or Japan. You get X, you can go to Y college.

 

As long as we are on an objective standard, its just a joke. And anyone getting awards based on grades, is just furthering that joke.

 

But learning isn't rote memorization of facts or algorithms to solve math problems. Any problem beyond very basic mathematics or "fill in the blank" is going to be subjective and evaluate the student's abilities in multiple ways. Common Core, for all of its faults, gets away from not-exactly-useful testing and evaluation along those simplistic lines.

 

A writing assignment is still going to be subjective, too. Interpretation and application of the grading rubric as well as any quality assessment is going to vary for every individual grader.

 

Exactly.

 

Thats why giving awards on subjective nonsense in junior high/hs is nonsense. Let these kids have a change to get better.

 

Otherwise you have the situation of my life. Certain kids could just never catch us, they just never had the chance. By the time we are in HS, they are on a much lower path with no way to catch up.

 

How is it fair that Im in AP classes to start, where they have no chance to be, because back when they were 6 someone decided that they werent as smart?

[StrangeSox]

How can a math or science teacher do this when you're given a problem with only one correct answer? Except for english teachers who may or may not like your writing style (and again, that's not the entirety of the grade), who else can be manipulated?

Partial credits.

[Soxbadger]

How can a math or science teacher do this when you're given a problem with only one correct answer? Except for english teachers who may or may not like your writing style (and again, that's not the entirety of the grade), who else can be manipulated?

 

Easily

 

In math/science. Didnt show work, participation, attendance, a million other ways.

 

Partner test AP physics, I got a different grade than my hot lab partner, because the teacher had a crush on her. We had the same answer, the teacher just claimed "You didnt show all your work"

 

Wtf is that.

[StrangeSox]

Common Core is doing away with "attendance"-type grades and busywork like worksheets.

[Jenksismyhero]

I guess I went to a different school. My AP classes in science and math were probably 90% objective - do you know the solution to this problem. Yes, occasionally you'd get an open ended question like "explain X theory and its importance" but those were few and far between. And again, even in those types of questions the grade is going to be based on a set criteria set by the teacher - did you name drop the scientist? 2 pts. Did you include alternative theories? 2 pts. etc.

 

I'm not suggesting there isn't a subjective element, but I don't think it's as important as you guys are making it out to be.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Jenksismyhero]

Partial credits.

 

I recall always being aware of the grading. If you're told to show your work and you don't and you get partial credit, well, that's because you didn't show your work. How does that devalue a grade you get?

[StrangeSox]

"Know the solution" to a problem with multiple steps and point values for each step requires some level of interpretation on the grader's part.

[Jenksismyhero]

Easily

 

In math/science. Didnt show work, participation, attendance, a million other ways.

 

Partner test AP physics, I got a different grade than my hot lab partner, because the teacher had a crush on her. We had the same answer, the teacher just claimed "You didnt show all your work"

 

Wtf is that.

 

Participation and attendance are what, 5% of your grade? Yes, if you're competing for the top 1% of your class that might matter, but let's be real - those kids are not going to lose out on those extra points because they're in the 1% already. They care and they participate.

 

Your average student is going to be average for more reasons than not getting that extra 5% for raising his/her hand as much as he/she should.

[Jenksismyhero]

"Know the solution" to a problem with multiple steps and point values for each step requires some level of interpretation on the grader's part.

 

That's a failure of the teacher to explain themselves, not some inherent unfairness in the grading process.

[StrangeSox]

That's a failure of the teacher to explain themselves, not some inherent unfairness in the grading process.

I wasn't arguing for some inherent unfairness, I'm not exactly following everywhere sb's going, just saying that even with straight-forward math problems, there's some level of subjectivity that creeps in once you move past the most basic levels. Having to write proofs in geometry (UGH) is a good example.

[bmags]

While writing may be subjective, I was impressed on AP tests how consistent our class would validate a paper with a 2, 3, 4, or 5.

[StrangeSox]

Maybe at the AP-level that's true, but it doesn't seem that way in daily classroom work (second-hand, my wife is a Language Arts teacher). That goes for their Common Core assessments, too, which has an incredibly vague rubric.

 

btw I think the cancellation and the stated reasons are pretty silly, but so are people who obsess over that sort of stuff.

[Soxbadger]

Where im going with this is, honor rolls have nothing to do with the wussification of America. Subjective grading does.

 

The second you give grades for busy work, participation, extra credit, hard work, you are creating a system where the smartest are not always being recognized.

 

So if we really want to change things, get rid of grades entirely. Give subjective tests, and let the results speak for themselves. If you want to give awards based on standard tests that every kid in the school took, I would have no problem with that.

 

But when student X, had teacher Y, who gave everyone As. Where as student Z, had teacher X, that gave most people Bs, its stupid to give student X an award, because its impossible to tell if they are more deserving than student Z.

 

And I remembered that stupid honor thing I was thinking about it was called "National Honor Society" http://www.nhs.us/

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Where im going with this is, honor rolls have nothing to do with the wussification of America. Subjective grading does.

 

The second you give grades for busy work, participation, extra credit, hard work, you are creating a system where the smartest are not always being recognized.

 

So if we really want to change things, get rid of grades entirely. Give subjective tests, and let the results speak for themselves. If you want to give awards based on standard tests that every kid in the school took, I would have no problem with that.

 

But when student X, had teacher Y, who gave everyone As. Where as student Z, had teacher X, that gave most people Bs, its stupid to give student X an award, because its impossible to tell if they are more deserving than student Z.

 

And I remembered that stupid honor thing I was thinking about it was called "National Honor Society" http://www.nhs.us/

 

The wussification is that the middle school teacher felt compelled to get rid of a ceremony honoring kids for doing well because other kids got sad that they didn't do well.

 

I still think you're completely overblowing those "extras" to grades. Take those away and the bell curve of students isn't going to change. The smart kids are going to stay smart and the dumb kids are going to stay dumb. And even if you have a teacher that never gives an A and is a dick, in the grand scheme those things get averaged out.

[Quin]

Can we make a rule not allowing two lawyers in the same thread?

[Steve9347]

I'm still going to go ahead and say badger didn't make honor roll.

[Soxbadger]

The wussification is that the middle school teacher felt compelled to get rid of a ceremony honoring kids for doing well because other kids got sad that they didn't do well.

 

I still think you're completely overblowing those "extras" to grades. Take those away and the bell curve of students isn't going to change. The smart kids are going to stay smart and the dumb kids are going to stay dumb. And even if you have a teacher that never gives an A and is a dick, in the grand scheme those things get averaged out.

 

Im not really overblowing anything 10%+ being homework and participation, just shows that grades are nonsense. They at most should be 1%. I can remember classes where it was something stupid like 20% plus.

 

 

I'm still going to go ahead and say badger didn't make honor roll.

 

Honor roll at my school was over 3.0., I was in all ap classes, it meant I had to get a C.... That isnt exactly difficult.

 

[Steve9347]

Honor roll at my school was over 3.0., I was in all ap classes, it meant I had to get a C.... That isnt exactly difficult.

Look at you defending it! Clearly Honor Roll was very important to you!