Yes. It was heading for the gap and Vlad cut it off well, but he bobbled it a little as Timo was retreating to 1B and he didn't have enough time to get a hustle double.

 

I'm sure there were other memories of him too, those are just the two that stick out in my head.

He definitely had a decent amount of go ahead hits in late innings. As I've grown older, I don't really believe in "clutchness" in baseball like I did when I was younger but at the time I loved Timo because I believed he was a clutch hitter.

He definitely had a decent amount of go ahead hits in late innings. As I've grown older, I don't really believe in "clutchness" in baseball like I did when I was younger but at the time I loved Timo because I believed he was a clutch hitter.

 

Nobody is more clutch than Jose Valentin

Nobody is more clutch than Jose Valentin

 

He never, ever made an error that hurt the Sox

I would absolutely have agreed with you...

 

Until I watched the 2012 White Sox follow up the 2011 White Sox.

 

You re-posted a tweet about the Sox possibly being the first team since the 1915 Philadelphia A's to go from having the best fielding percentage to the worst from one year to the next. They were managed by some guy named Connie Mack.

He never, ever made an error that hurt the Sox

 

MANOS!

 

He's probably #3 on my list of favorite Sox players of all time.

MANOS!

 

He's probably #3 on my list of favorite Sox players of all time.

 

that might actually be a great thread topic.

that might actually be a great thread topic.

Guess Wite's 2 favorite White Sox players?

Guess Wite's 2 favorite White Sox players?

 

Kevin Beirne and Julio Ramirez go #1 and #2. Mark Dalesandro and Ken Vining round out the top 5

De Aza-consensus he isn't very good, get rid of him

Ramirez-consensus, he has to go

Gillespie-consensus, not a regular player

Dunn-consensus, please retire

Konerko-consensus, see Dunn.

Garcia-consensus, hope for the future

Viciedo-consensus, maybe hope for the future

Beckham-consensus, bust, should probably go

Phegley-consensus, the Sox need a catcher

 

This is Ventura's line up. The players he has to play with. Just going by Soxtalk's consensus, expecting anything but losses piling up would be insane.

 

De Aza-consensus he isn't very good, get rid of him

Ramirez-consensus, he has to go

Gillespie-consensus, not a regular player

Dunn-consensus, please retire

Konerko-consensus, see Dunn.

Garcia-consensus, hope for the future

Viciedo-consensus, maybe hope for the future

Beckham-consensus, bust, should probably go

Phegley-consensus, the Sox need a catcher

 

This is Ventura's line up. The players he has to play with. Just going by Soxtalk's consensus, expecting anything but losses piling up would be insane.

Again, why does the offense sucking balls mean that Robin did a good job this year? We all know the talent level on this team, especially on offense, was pretty damn bad and that a poor season would have been the outcome no matter who the manager was. That doesn't mean that Robin didn't contribute to our struggles as well with poor decision-making. Let's hold everyone accountable for their roles in this mess, even if some parties are more responsible than others. While the players are the chief culprits here, Robin does not deserve a free pass IMO.

Again, why does the offense sucking balls mean that Robin did a good job this year? We all know the talent level on this team, especially on offense, was pretty damn bad and that a poor season would have been the outcome no matter who the manager was. That doesn't mean that Robin didn't contribute to our struggles as well with poor decision-making. Let's hold everyone accountable for their roles in this mess, even if some parties are more responsible than others. While the players are the chief culprits here, Robin does not deserve a free pass IMO.

Judge the guy when he has good players. Every manager loses with bad players. LaRussa lost with bad players. Bobby Cox lost with bad players. Piniella lost with bad players. Scoscia lost with bad players. There is nobody who can win with bad players. Whoever the managerial flavor of the day is right now would lose with the Sox roster. Robin has been falsely accused of things on this board. Not working on fundamentals in spring training. False. Not wanting to manage. False. Let it play out. If good players lose under his watch, make a change, but as of now judging him on what he is being judged on is like judging Cooper on Dylan Axelrod's performance. No one will do that.

Again, you insist that they adequately worked on fundamentals, the evidence instead says that the white sox are te first team in nearly 100 years to have the best fielding percentage one year and the worst fielding percentage the next year.

Again, you insist that they adequately worked on fundamentals, the evidence instead says that the white sox are te first team in nearly 100 years to have the best fielding percentage one year and the worst fielding percentage the next year.

And its been pointed out over and over again, they work on fundamentals, as Marty pointed out Connie Mack managed the last team to do that. Was he a horrible manager? BTW, It is funny that fielding percentage seems to be a worthwhile stat sometimes, but other times it is laughed at.

 

I would think if taking groundballs in March was as vital as you claim, and it was blown off, after playing X number of games, the Sox would have been at the point of where the were a season ago in April, yet the fundamentals never improved. I am quite sure if the Sox never worked on them like you claim, that story would be out there, but it is not.

Again, you insist that they adequately worked on fundamentals, the evidence instead says that the white sox are te first team in nearly 100 years to have the best fielding percentage one year and the worst fielding percentage the next year.

I don't get the not working on fundamentals in spring training argument. Our defense has been bad all year, that would be one hell of a spring training carry over effect to explain the majority of the change in fielding percentage between 2012 & 2013.

And its been pointed out over and over again, they work on fundamentals, as Marty pointed out Connie Mack managed the last team to do that. Was he a horrible manager? BTW, It is funny that fielding percentage seems to be a worthwhile stat sometimes, but other times it is laughed at.

 

I would think if taking groundballs in March was as vital as you claim, and it was blown off, after playing X number of games, the Sox would have been at the point of where the were a season ago in April, yet the fundamentals never improved. I am quite sure if the Sox never worked on them like you claim, that story would be out there, but it is not.

Of course a good manager would have been on top of it in April.

 

That's why they did that one extra hour of fundamentals work in mid May.

I don't get the not working on fundamentals in spring training argument. Our defense has been bad all year, that would be one hell of a spring training carry over effect to explain the majority of the change in fielding percentage between 2012 & 2013.

I spent the entire year last year crediting the manager for the great fundamental play the whole year. They came out of ST focused like lasers on their jobs and it lasted the whole year.

I spent the entire year last year crediting the manager for the great fundamental play the whole year. They came out of ST focused like lasers on their jobs and it lasted the whole year.

You probably gave him too much credit, and now are giving him too much blame. In August, if Alejandro De Aza gets doubled off of third on a soft liner or throws the ball over the cutoff man's head, blaming it on spring training is way out there. According to Stone, they work on fundamentals all the time. In fact, Gonzo took a picture for Twitter a couple of months ago with Daryl Boston holding a pre game baserunning clinic. They had 2 or 3 boneheaded baserunning plays later that night. There are a couple of guys with very low baseball IQs that probably can't be helped, sort of like not everyone can get a 35 on the ACT no matter how much they prepare. They also have guys getting a little older, and the perfect storm occurred. Everything went wrong.

 

And then there's the VEntura strategy. Over-use pitchers, never sit Alexei (he still won't in September garbage time) intentionally walk Chris Getz...heck, whenever a team has a runner on and base open when they can walk off, intentionally walk the batter to clog the base (that nonsense has cost us several games). 2 runners on down 2 in the 9th? Bunt the ball.

He's a lousy manager all the way around.

He never, ever made an error that hurt the Sox

 

I will never forget when Sirotka nearly outdueled Pedro at Fenway but a Valentin throwing error made it a 1-0 loss.

And then there's the VEntura strategy. Over-use pitchers, never sit Alexei (he still won't in September garbage time) intentionally walk Chris Getz...heck, whenever a team has a runner on and base open when they can walk off, intentionally walk the batter to clog the base (that nonsense has cost us several games). 2 runners on down 2 in the 9th? Bunt the ball.

He's a lousy manager all the way around.

 

I think you just wrote a post describing 90% of baseball managers

And then there's the VEntura strategy. Over-use pitchers, never sit Alexei (he still won't in September garbage time) intentionally walk Chris Getz...heck, whenever a team has a runner on and base open when they can walk off, intentionally walk the batter to clog the base (that nonsense has cost us several games). 2 runners on down 2 in the 9th? Bunt the ball.

He's a lousy manager all the way around.

 

Where do I begin?

 

"Over-use pitchers"

 

Ok first, in whose opinion has Ventura overused his staff? Yours? You know more than Ventura and Cooper about what a Major League pitcher can and can't do? The only person that was overused in my opinion was Crain and Ventura was forced into that by the fact that the rest of the bullpen was hot garbage and we were still somewhat in it at that point.

 

"Never sit Alexei (he still won't in September garbage time)"

 

If Alexei is the best option and is physically able to play everyday, why not play him? He has, in fact, sat out two games in September. Not a lot but some. Ventura has rotated the young players around enough to give them all plenty of playing time. I have no problem with the way Ventura handled this.

 

"Intentionally walk Chris Getz"

 

If you honestly have a problem with this, then I really question your baseball knowledge. The game where Getz was intentionally walked was a 5-5 tie in the bottom of the 10th with 2 outs, a runner on second, Omogrosso pitching and Kotarras on deck. In this situation, Getz's run meant absolutely nothing. Getz has a better chance of beating you than Kotarras and I'm wouldn't be surprised if Omogrosso was given the option of who to pitch to. This was the right call in this situation.

 

"Intentionally walk the batter to clog the bases"

 

This is usually done to set up a double play. If you have a problem with Ventura doing this, then you must have a problem with every manager that has ever managed because they ALL do it.

 

"2 runners on down 2 in the 9th"

 

If these runners are at first and second with no outs, this is the right play (depending on whose batting). I would have a hard time believing this happened this year other than if there were 2 on nobody out. You would have to provide some sort of evidence for me to believe it and I bet you can't.

 

All in all, Ventura is not a great manager but is nowhere near as bad as some make him out to be. As pathetic as the team played this year, it did not matter who was manager.

I don't get the not working on fundamentals in spring training argument. Our defense has been bad all year, that would be one hell of a spring training carry over effect to explain the majority of the change in fielding percentage between 2012 & 2013.

 

Maybe not accountable for all going in the "tank" defensively.

 

Flowers regressed. Viciedo, too. Ramirez and Beckham weren't as good as in the past, particularly Alexei. DeAza continues to be an enigma. Rios wasn't as sharp as well with fundamentals, hitting cut-off men, etc.

 

We all know Dunn/Konerko and their limitations. About the only pleasant surprise was Conor, who was merely decent/adequate.

 

Phegley was as promised.

 

Keppinger was never very good in the first place, was overexposed and his lack of ability to D up contributed to problems that snowballed all over the infield IMO.

Edited September 26, 201312 yr by caulfield12

All in all, Ventura is not a great manager but is nowhere near as bad as some make him out to be. As pathetic as the team played this year, it did not matter who was manager.

 

As much as you guys hate Ozzie, I think when Robin ultimately quits or gets nudged out we are going to hear it's because of his personality, laid back and all that, players taking advantage of him by loafing, etc. It's all a revolving circus. You want a loudmouth manager; then he runs his course and you want a quiet professional; then he gets stepped on and you want an aggressive guy again.

I liked the way Ozzie told it like it is saying the team was total horses***, etc. Addendum: I do realize you all disagree with my last sentence so let's not argue about it.

I'm just stressing Robin's personality will be what we hear about when he's ultimately gone. Too laid back, etc.

As much as you guys hate Ozzie, I think when Robin ultimately quits or gets nudged out we are going to hear it's because of his personality, laid back and all that, players taking advantage of him by loafing, etc. It's all a revolving circus. You want a loudmouth manager; then he runs his course and you want a quiet professional; then he gets stepped on and you want an aggressive guy again.

I liked the way Ozzie told it like it is saying the team was total horses***, etc. Addendum: I do realize you all disagree with my last sentence so let's not argue about it.

I'm just stressing Robin's personality will be what we hear about when he's ultimately gone. Too laid back, etc.

 

I don't think I'd call Ventura laid back. He gets on guys quite a bit. I'd say his temperament is better described as calm.

I don't think I'd call Ventura laid back. He gets on guys quite a bit. I'd say his temperament is better described as calm.

 

He just doesn't do it for the TV cameras. He does it in the locker room.