How good would they have been?

[Jake]

Honestly, this is one of the reasons it can be difficult to figure out what's going on in the organization.

 

Were drafts bad because:

-scouts were bad, recommending bad players

-GM is bad, overruling good scout recommendations

-owner is cheap, overruling the choices of GM/scouts due to cost

-player development is great, making up for iffy drafts

-player development is terrible, making good drafts look bad

 

We are finding out that it was the owner to a great extent for the Sox recently, but it can be pretty damn difficult to know which variables are true at any given moment

[witesoxfan]

How good would Canseco and Mike Piazza be without steroids? Probably barely MLB caliber players if that.

 

There is absolutely no way of knowing this.

[witesoxfan]

Jose Canseco said that himself in his book.

 

Mike Piazza was drafted (in the 62nd round) because of his father.

 

Canseco is probably using a bit of hyperbole there. Mark Buehrle was drafted in the 38th round, I don't see the point in that.

 

Fact is, you can't say they would be nothing without steroids. All you can do is make a basic speculation, say they would probably be worse without, say we don't know how much worse, and leave it at that.

[Balta1701]

Honestly, this is one of the reasons it can be difficult to figure out what's going on in the organization.

 

Were drafts bad because:

-scouts were bad, recommending bad players

-GM is bad, overruling good scout recommendations

-owner is cheap, overruling the choices of GM/scouts due to cost

-player development is great, making up for iffy drafts

-player development is terrible, making good drafts look bad

 

We are finding out that it was the owner to a great extent for the Sox recently, but it can be pretty damn difficult to know which variables are true at any given moment

You left out a huge one...bad luck.

 

In any given year, several teams should have below average drafts from a combination of bad luck and not drafting highly. A couple years of that should leave most systems pretty barren.

[witesoxfan]

The stories behind Pizza indicate that he was a burly, slow kid who did not look the part of a big league player. Even looking back, you would just think that he was too big to play the game. For all we know, he may have continued working hard and put together a career as a big leaguer.

 

I'm guessing the Tigers didn't draft Alex Avila totally based on his baseball experience but also because his father worked in the front office. Nepotism has always existed in baseball and, now and then, guys make it through.

 

(this may not be directly nepotism, but the move was made based on the same exact sentimentality)

 

My main problem with that logic is that it thus suggests that no undrafted player who was eligible for the draft should ever make it to the majors.

[Balta1701]

The stories behind Pizza indicate that he was a burly, slow kid who did not look the part of a big league player. Even looking back, you would just think that he was too big to play the game. For all we know, he may have continued working hard and put together a career as a big leaguer.

I'm guessing the Tigers didn't draft Alex Avila totally based on his baseball experience but also because his father worked in the front office. Nepotism has always existed in baseball and, now and then, guys make it through.

 

(this may not be directly nepotism, but the move was made based on the same exact sentimentality)

 

My main problem with that logic is that it thus suggests that no undrafted player who was eligible for the draft should ever make it to the majors.

Supposedly his father refused to participate in any scouting discussions on him because he wanted him to be drafted on his own merit, for whatever that is worth.

[witesoxfan]

The point is that saying that Piazza was nothing without steroids because he was a 62nd round pick with nothing else to back it is is absolutely absurd, naive, and misinformed. It assumes far too much about Mike Piazza as a baseball player before using steroids. It does not happen as often, but guys come from all sorts of different backgrounds, and some of them are as undrafted free agents.

 

I don't know what to think of Piazza as a player. I don't know how much of an impact steroids and other assorted PEDs had on his career. I do know that assuming the greatest hitting catcher of all time is absolutely nothing without steroids is wrong, as is assuming Canseco is nothing without steroids, even if it came from the horse's mouth himself.

[Kyyle23]

Was Piazza named in the Mitchell report? I dont remember anything but vague accusations, nothing concrete

[Balta1701]

Was Piazza named in the Mitchell report? I dont remember anything but vague accusations, nothing concrete

No. He has never turned up in any official investigation. He was alleged to have used in a book by Jeff Pearlman, but that's the most specific anyone has gotten with him.

[Balta1701]

Was Piazza named in the Mitchell report? I dont remember anything but vague accusations, nothing concrete

Oh, I should add this:

Piazza said he took androstenedione and Ephedra before the substances landed on MLB’s banned list. He also said he took the anti-inflammatory drug Vioxx, stimulants commonly known as “greenies,” and the asthma med Dymetadrine, according to the New York Post. Piazza wrote of a time when he asked former Mets trainer Fred Hina about human growth hormone, not knowing it was banned substance, the New York Times reported.

[witesoxfan]

Piazza was drafted as a favor. This isn't black or white like you're trying to make it. I understand players overcome all types of odds but considering he was only drafted because of his father it's fair to assume at the least part of his success is owed to PEDs. It's a moot point but still.

 

That is one thing I wouldn't disagree with. There was definitely some benefit and it wasn't all natural talent that got him there. We just have no idea what he would have been, whether it is a journeyman minor league player or a backup or a half ass starter or what. That much is just hard to say.

[Dick Allen]

I don't know how steroids can make someone a HOFer vs. not even worthy of a spot on an A ball roster. Obviously Piazza had far more ability than was thought. Perhaps he wouldn't have been a major leaguer, I know Canseco said he himself would have been a fringe at best player, but teams missed the boat on Piazza. Even without steroids his ability was way better than where he was drafted,and he probably wouldn't have been drafted if there wasn't a relationship with Lasorda.

[witesoxfan]

I don't know how steroids can make someone a HOFer vs. not even worthy of a spot on an A ball roster. Obviously Piazza had far more ability than was thought. Perhaps he wouldn't have been a major leaguer, I know Canseco said he himself would have been a fringe at best player, but teams missed the boat on Piazza. Even without steroids his ability was way better than where he was drafted,and he probably wouldn't have been drafted if there wasn't a relationship with Lasorda.

 

CJ Edwards fits the bill there too, even if he's still just doing that at a young age. He was playing in a bush league when a scout from the Rangers saw him. They took a chance on him in the 48th round and he's blossomed into a pretty damn good looking prospect.

[Nokona]

Bonds went from being a surebet HOFer to the best player I've ever seen.

 

Remember, at age 42 he still OPS'd .1045. 30 HRs in 350ABs.

 

 

[Jake]

It affects different people differently. For some people, it ends up not really doing much of anything for them. Others will get a huge boost, some a small boost, some get a boost via fewer injuries/faster recovery. Many of them won't know for sure how much it helped or if it did at all. We'll never know, either.

[balfanman]

Bonds went from being a surebet HOFer to the best player I've ever seen.

 

Remember, at age 42 he still OPS'd .1045. 30 HRs in 350ABs.

 

Well yeah, when baseball practically instructs umpires not to call a strike on him unless it's over the heart of the plate I'm pretty sure that an out of shape old guy like me could hit a little bit too.

 

Watching Bonds bat in his steroid seasons was one of the most disgusting things that I've ever seen in my 50 years of watching baseball.