Teams have interest in Viciedo/De Aza

[Eminor3rd]

OT: Am I the only one who still wants us to do whatever it takes outside of Sale/Abreu/Garcia to land Giancarlo Stanton?

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v3149...-in-the-seventh

[MiddleCoastBias]

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v3149...-in-the-seventh

 

Man, Christian Yelich smoked that ball.

[Eminor3rd]

Man, Christian Yelich smoked that ball.

 

Haha I didn't notice that before. Guess the scoreboard guys need to get into midseason form, too, lol.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I think so. Thing is IF the Marlins made Stanton available there are other teams with plenty more to offer than the Sox have. I'd love to see what kind of numbers Stanton would put up at the Cell but its just not realistic.

 

 

The Sox wouldn't be able to sign Stanton once he became free either.

[witesoxfan]

OT: Am I the only one who still wants us to do whatever it takes outside of Sale/Abreu/Garcia to land Giancarlo Stanton?

 

There are 29 other teams beside the Sox that really want Giancarlo Stanton too. He's pretty good.

[harfman77]

That's the second paragraph in what you just quoted, where I said he has talent and it isn't impossible for him to improve.

 

But IF HE DOES it will be a complete reversal of everything we know about him. All things are possible, complete HALLELUJAH epiphanies of Zen clarity are uncommon. It's just how it is. It isn't a good bet that a dude with 1200 PAs of ML hackitude just "gets it," because the coaches have been trying to tell him that for years. You can find a few guys, sure, and that's why it is possible. But for every success there are 500 failures. You can beat a straight flush, for example, but the odds aren't on your side, and so it behooves you to cut your losses. That's all I'm saying. If Seattle is going to give us something of value to take our risk off our hands, we should do it, IMO.

 

Not for Michael Saunders though.

 

Thats a little overly dramatic, he was tremendous vs LHP and had a lot of issues with RHP in his first full season. Last season he was greatly improved against RHP. The pieces are all there to show that he can be successful, he showed power two years ago, showed the ability to adapt his approach last season, now hopefully he can put it altogether. He is still fairly young and the indicators are that he is learning to play baseball at this level, and with that there will be growing pains. He is never gonna be a guy that has a good K/BB rate and he never has been. But as a rebuilding team, he is the type of player you need to keep until he completely flames out in case he is able to figure it out.

[southsider2k5]

OT: Am I the only one who still wants us to do whatever it takes outside of Sale/Abreu/Garcia to land Giancarlo Stanton?

 

Unless he is willing to sign a pretty cheap (in terms of current FA prices) long term deal, I think our window for Stanton is closed right now.

[southsider2k5]

There are 29 other teams beside the Sox that really want Giancarlo Stanton too. He's pretty good.

 

The guy can literally pick his destination. I think we can cross one team off of the list for sure...

[witesoxfan]

The guy can literally pick his destination. I think we can cross one team off of the list for sure...

 

Yes, the Cleveland Browns.

[harfman77]

OT: Am I the only one who still wants us to do whatever it takes outside of Sale/Abreu/Garcia to land Giancarlo Stanton?

 

Yes, I do not want someone who cannot figure out his own first name.

[Eminor3rd]

Thats a little overly dramatic, he was tremendous vs LHP and had a lot of issues with RHP in his first full season. Last season he was greatly improved against RHP. The pieces are all there to show that he can be successful, he showed power two years ago, showed the ability to adapt his approach last season, now hopefully he can put it altogether. He is still fairly young and the indicators are that he is learning to play baseball at this level, and with that there will be growing pains. He is never gonna be a guy that has a good K/BB rate and he never has been. But as a rebuilding team, he is the type of player you need to keep until he completely flames out in case he is able to figure it out.

 

And greatly, greatly horribad against lefties. As I stated a few posts ago, his improvement against righties went from "replacement level shortstop (72 wRC+)" to "slightly below league average (98 wRC+)." Meanwhile, his decline against lefties went from "MONSTER (173 wRC+)" to "Gordon Beckham (89 wRC+)." When he improved his splits, he didn't raise his performance against righties to meet his performance against lefites, he dropped his performance against lefties to match righties. Which was bad.

 

Also, where are these sign that he adapted his approach? His O-swing, which was already bad, got WORSE last year. The average player swings at less than one third of the pitches he sees outside of the strikezone. Viciedo jumped three percentage points to 42.5% last year! If he's adapting, it's to swing at more bad pitches.

 

Once again, I'm not saying he can't, but all the signs point to him NOT figuring it out. That's all I'm saying. You can have a good feeling about him, or you can think that he's worth a shot in the dark anyway, and I can see where you're coming from. I can even get behind the latter reason a little bit. But based on literally everything we can observe from the seats, it will be a reversal of ALL of his trends -- from pitch selection, to batted ball profile, to actual results on the field -- if he turns into an above average player.

 

[Jake]

A player who has put up two full seasons of high 90s wRC+ is not exactly far from being productive. Dayan only has to get marginally better to be worth keeping around indefinitely.

[Eminor3rd]

A player who has put up two full seasons of high 90s wRC+ is not exactly far from being productive. Dayan only has to get marginally better to be worth keeping around indefinitely.

 

An infielder or elite defender that puts that up isn't far, sure. But a corner OF that is a defensive and baserunning liability needs to hit better than that. That's why that 96 wRC+ from last year, for example, led to a -0.1 fWAR. Also, barring stark improvement in his OF defense this year, the guy is destined to be a DH as soon as 2015. The AL league average DH last year was 111 wRC+.

 

Also, this again ignores his startlingly declining plate discipline. His ticket to good playerdom must be paved with a change in philosophy, not simply a few more reps of his current plan.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[Steve9347]

No he doesn't

Prove it.

 

See, I can http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vicieda01.shtml and prove my stance. Prove yours.

[59th street]

A player who has put up two full seasons of high 90s wRC+ is not exactly far from being productive. Dayan only has to get marginally better to be worth keeping around indefinitely.

 

Agree. I am an optimist by nature and still believe that Viciedo has shown plenty to be excited about.

 

I truly think he would benefit from some PROTECTION in the line up. Last year he mostly had either Keppinger of Flowers batting behind him, not exactly the kind of hitters who would make a pitcher ever show Dayan a strike. Couple that spot in the order with his aggressive/undisciplined approach and it is no surprise that he was chasing all kinds of unhittable pitches last year. There was a brief 2-3 week period last year where he was slotted 5 th in the line up and was at his most productive. I understand he needs to be a lot smarter in his approach and more selective but with better protection in the line up he would likely see a lot more strikes and be a much more dangerous hitter. I am not in favor of selling low on him.

[witesoxfan]

An infielder or elite defender that puts that up isn't far, sure. But a corner OF that is a defensive and baserunning liability needs to hit better than that. That's why that 96 wRC+ from last year, for example, led to a -0.1 fWAR. Also, barring stark improvement in his OF defense this year, the guy is destined to be a DH as soon as 2015. The AL league average DH last year was 111 wRC+.

 

Also, this again ignores his startlingly declining plate discipline. His ticket to good playerdom must be paved with a change in philosophy, not simply a few more reps of his current plan.

 

This is the absolute most important part and about the only area where you and I disagree. I saw Viciedo as a patient hitter last year. It was only for about a 7-10 day stretch, but I saw it and it was amazing. And the only reason he was so patient was because it hurt to swing the bat, so he had to do it selectively.

 

I'm sure they have, but why not try and work this method from that angle? "Pretend it hurts to swing the bat." He was taking pitches, popping outside fastballs to the right center gap, yanking inside fastballs down the line and into the outfield, and drawing walks when he wasn't getting those pitches. And then he suddenly feels better and OH YEA BRO I CAN JACK THIS BALL OFF THE GROUND INTO THE GULF swinging strike 3.

 

I'm really, really, really hoping Abreu's mindset wears off on him a little bit.

 

(oh, and obviously we disagree because you essentially do not believe he will while I do believe he will, but it's merely opinion and all we have to go on is the facts and the facts say he has gotten worse. I'm also a Bills fan, so eternally the optimist, always the loser)

Edited March 11, 2014 by witesoxfan

[witesoxfan]

Agree. I am an optimist by nature and still believe that Viciedo has shown plenty to be excited about.

 

I truly think he would benefit from some PROTECTION in the line up. Last year he mostly had either Keppinger of Flowers batting behind him, not exactly the kind of hitters who would make a pitcher ever show Dayan a strike. Couple that spot in the order with his aggressive/undisciplined approach and it is no surprise that he was chasing all kinds of unhittable pitches last year. There was a brief 2-3 week period last year where he was slotted 5 th in the line up and was at his most productive. I understand he needs to be a lot smarter in his approach and more selective but with better protection in the line up he would likely see a lot more strikes and be a much more dangerous hitter. I am not in favor of selling low on him.

 

I think he would benefit from not swinging at pitches 6 inches out of the zone. He could have Eddie Gaedel or Ted Williams hitting behind him, but if he's swinging at junk, guess what's gonna happen?

[59th street]

I think he would benefit from not swinging at pitches 6 inches out of the zone. He could have Eddie Gaedel or Ted Williams hitting behind him, but if he's swinging at junk, guess what's gonna happen?

 

No argument, he has to have a better approach and learn to be more selective.

It is very difficult to have any protection given the putrid performance of our lineup last year. I just think he has shown flashes of being a dangerous run producer and it would help him (and the SOX) if the pitcher was more likely to challenge him "in" the strike zone as opposed to never having to show him a strike knowing a couple of .220 hitters were coming up behind him.

[Balta1701]

No argument, he has to have a better approach and learn to be more selective.

It is very difficult to have any protection given the putrid performance of our lineup last year. I just think he has shown flashes of being a dangerous run producer and it would help him (and the SOX) if the pitcher was more likely to challenge him "in" the strike zone as opposed to never having to show him a strike knowing a couple of .220 hitters were coming up behind him.

They're not going to challenge him until he can continously prove he's going to let pitches that are unhittable go past him. When he gets into those short grooves you can see him doing exactly that, he'll take a couple extra walks and have the count in his favor and the next thing you know he kills the ball, but then 2 weeks later he'll be back swinging at pitches over his head.

 

Pitchers won't be scared of walking him until he shows he's not going to swing.

[Eminor3rd]

This is the absolute most important part and about the only area where you and I disagree. I saw Viciedo as a patient hitter last year. It was only for about a 7-10 day stretch, but I saw it and it was amazing. And the only reason he was so patient was because it hurt to swing the bat, so he had to do it selectively.

 

I'm sure they have, but why not try and work this method from that angle? "Pretend it hurts to swing the bat." He was taking pitches, popping outside fastballs to the right center gap, yanking inside fastballs down the line and into the outfield, and drawing walks when he wasn't getting those pitches. And then he suddenly feels better and OH YEA BRO I CAN JACK THIS BALL OFF THE GROUND INTO THE GULF swinging strike 3.

 

I'm really, really, really hoping Abreu's mindset wears off on him a little bit.

 

(oh, and obviously we disagree because you essentially do not believe he will while I do believe he will, but it's merely opinion and all we have to go on is the facts and the facts say he has gotten worse. I'm also a Bills fan, so eternally the optimist, always the loser)

 

This is actually what makes me most afraid for him -- I believe I've seen him legitimately try to be selective too. 'twas most of the second half of 2012, when it looked, to me, like he was really REALLY trying to get deeper into counts. The problem was that it looked hapless. He was taking great pitches, then guess swinging at bad ones still. And it is THIS period of time that made me believe that it isn't a matter of patience with him, but rather a lack of ability to recognize pitches. If my hunch is correct, then he probably isn't even coachable.

 

Anyway, I don't bring that up very often because I can't prove that he was actually trying to be patient, it just seemed like it to me. Do you know where to find avg. pitches per AB sortable by season splits?

[Eminor3rd]

They're not going to challenge him until he can continously prove he's going to let pitches that are unhittable go past him.

 

This ^

 

[hogan873]

Prove it.

 

See, I can http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vicieda01.shtml and prove my stance. Prove yours.

That link doesn't prove that Viciedo sucks. Granted he doesn't have the best numbers, but what number would he have to have to "not suck"? He's only had two full years at the ML level, and he was hurt for a while last year. His HRs were down a bit from 2012, but his 2B and 3B (oddly enough) numbers were up. He's got to get better at taking walks and not swinging at bad pitches.

 

Is he great? No. But supplying a link that displays stats that are not terrible is no way to prove that he sucks.

 

If he improves a bit this year (provided he isn't traded) and hits .265+ with 25+ HRs while taking a few more walks, I'd be okay with that.

[royoung]

They're not going to challenge him until he can continously prove he's going to let pitches that are unhittable go past him. When he gets into those short grooves you can see him doing exactly that, he'll take a couple extra walks and have the count in his favor and the next thing you know he kills the ball, but then 2 weeks later he'll be back swinging at pitches over his head.

 

Pitchers won't be scared of walking him until he shows he's not going to swing.

 

Do you believe that Avisail Garcia is going to go through the same struggles? Viciedo actually has a higher walk rate than Garcia does thus far.

[witesoxfan]

This is actually what makes me most afraid for him -- I believe I've seen him legitimately try to be selective too. 'twas most of the second half of 2012, when it looked, to me, like he was really REALLY trying to get deeper into counts. The problem was that it looked hapless. He was taking great pitches, then guess swinging at bad ones still. And it is THIS period of time that made me believe that it isn't a matter of patience with him, but rather a lack of ability to recognize pitches. If my hunch is correct, then he probably isn't even coachable.

 

Anyway, I don't bring that up very often because I can't prove that he was actually trying to be patient, it just seemed like it to me. Do you know where to find avg. pitches per AB sortable by season splits?

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/yea...e/type/expanded

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/30103/dayan-viciedo

 

3.64 P/PA in the second half (post ASB) in 2012. It was 3.69 for all of 2012. It was up to 3.82 P/PA in 2013.

 

This is why we keep statistics

[Eminor3rd]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/yea...e/type/expanded

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/30103/dayan-viciedo

 

3.64 P/PA in the second half (post ASB) in 2012. It was 3.69 for all of 2012. It was up to 3.82 P/PA in 2013.

 

This is why we keep statistics

 

Nice! So he took more pitches AND swung at more garbage last year. Curious.