Andy Wilkins

[ILMOU]

Prince hit behind Miguel during his MVP years.

Good catch (had forgotten already, lol), but no slouch, and VMart moved right into that slot when PF was out.

 

[caulfield12]

Has Wilkins EVER played the outfield?

 

Just doesn't seem like the best idea in the world if he's going to be worse than Viciedo and Garcia out there...thinking Josh Fields and that move to LF.

 

They're much better off acquiring a Seth Smith/under the radar type...who can actually upgrade our OF defense instead of make it even worse, and that's pretty hard to do when you're talking Viciedo, DeAza and Garcia.

[witesoxfan]

This is what Miguel Cabrera has seen behind him the last 3 years:

 

2012: .313/.412/.528/.940, 152 wRC+

2013: .279/.362/.457/.819, 124 wRC+

2014: .321/.386/.556/.942, 152 wRC+

 

Here's how Miguel Cabrera has performed:

 

2012: .330/.393/.606/.999, 165 wRC+

2013: .348/.442/.636/1.078, 191 wRC+

2014: .304/.364/.508/.872, 137 wRC+

 

In this particular sample, the theory is immediately debunked.

 

If Jose Abreu is a good hitter, he will hit well. It won't matter a heck of a lot who hits in front of behind him. If it did, you'd have to imagine it would affect the others directly in front of or behind him as well, and nobody has hit particularly well out of the 2 hole this year.

 

[witesoxfan]

Has Wilkins EVER played the outfield?

 

Just doesn't seem like the best idea in the world if he's going to be worse than Viciedo and Garcia out there...thinking Josh Fields and that move to LF.

 

They're much better off acquiring a Seth Smith/under the radar type...who can actually upgrade our OF defense instead of make it even worse, and that's pretty hard to do when you're talking Viciedo, DeAza and Garcia.

 

Seth Smith signed an extension with San Diego. He's not going anywhere.

 

The thought behind it is that you can get his bat into the lineup more consistently then. It's not to move him to OF full time.

[caulfield12]

Seth Smith signed an extension with San Diego. He's not going anywhere.

 

The thought behind it is that you can get his bat into the lineup more consistently then. It's not to move him to OF full time.

 

 

I know that. And he's not even "under the radar" to MLB GM's, I just meant to the average fan who's never watched a Padres game since Peavy or Gwynn were there...

 

Just have huge doubts you could stick him out there 10-15 times per year and not have even more disastrous results than Adam Dunn out in the outfield.

 

I suppose if he played in the AFL/winter ball...but only Capra, Bell, Hahn, etc., know the plan for Wilkins going forward, if he's even in their plans at all. Maybe they're all a lot higher on Ravelo, for example...anything's possible.

 

 

Finally, he signed that extension with Hinch, right? With a new GM/regime, they might be open to moving him in the off-season. We did it with Sergio Santos, after all.

Edited August 11, 2014 by caulfield12

[Lillian]

Wilkins being a lefty power bat has made him Lillian's top prospect

 

He may not be the "top prospect", but he could well be the most important position player prospect, precisely because of the need, which he could potentially fill.

[Lillian]

This is what Miguel Cabrera has seen behind him the last 3 years:

 

2012: .313/.412/.528/.940, 152 wRC+

2013: .279/.362/.457/.819, 124 wRC+

2014: .321/.386/.556/.942, 152 wRC+

 

Here's how Miguel Cabrera has performed:

 

2012: .330/.393/.606/.999, 165 wRC+

2013: .348/.442/.636/1.078, 191 wRC+

2014: .304/.364/.508/.872, 137 wRC+

 

In this particular sample, the theory is immediately debunked.

 

If Jose Abreu is a good hitter, he will hit well. It won't matter a heck of a lot who hits in front of behind him. If it did, you'd have to imagine it would affect the others directly in front of or behind him as well, and nobody has hit particularly well out of the 2 hole this year.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't follow your logic. How do those stats "debunk" the "theory"?

 

Is there really any doubt that it's important to have a solid threat batting behind the kind of dominant hitter that both Cabrera and Abreu represent?

Entering a series, an opposing team would otherwise simply make the conscious decision not to let that particular hitter beat them. He would subsequently be pitched around the entire series. He would not likely be able to produce much, aside from the walks.

 

[Vance Law]

I'm sorry, but I don't follow your logic. How do those stats "debunk" the "theory"?

 

The point being made there seems to be "in the year Cabreras's "protection" had by far his worst season, Cabrera had, by far, his best season." This year, Cabrera's protection is out-producing him.

[Kyyle23]

i dont think it is a stretch to say it doesnt matter one bit who is hitting behind Cabrera, he will get his.

[witesoxfan]

He may not be the "top prospect", but he could well be the most important position player prospect, precisely because of the need, which he could potentially fill.

 

Not even close. Based solely on that, I'd rate guys like Phegley, Kevan Smith, Marcus Semien, Micah Johnson, Tim Anderson, Carlos Sanchez, and Courtney Hawkins over him, and that's without putting much thought into it. Guys that hit from the left side with power are always available.

 

i dont think it is a stretch to say it doesnt matter one bit who is hitting behind Cabrera Abreu, he will get his.

 

I just wanted to fix this for relevancy.

[witesoxfan]

Is there really any doubt that it's important to have a solid threat batting behind the kind of dominant hitter that both Cabrera and Abreu represent?

Entering a series, an opposing team would otherwise simply make the conscious decision not to let that particular hitter beat them. He would subsequently be pitched around the entire series. He would not likely be able to produce much, aside from the walks.

 

This clearly explains why Abreu has had such a good year with guys like Gillaspie and Dunn hitting behind him (who, BTW, have both played fairly well this year and represented enough of a "threat" so as to force opposing pitchers to throw to Abreu).

[ILMOU]

Not really sure what the point of the batting-behind-Miggy stats was - he's always had credible threats behind him is what I gather from it. If you allow Abreu to be treated like a #8 hitter in the NL, he will suffer.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen

[Lillian]

This clearly explains why Abreu has had such a good year with guys like Gillaspie and Dunn hitting behind him (who, BTW, have both played fairly well this year and represented enough of a "threat" so as to force opposing pitchers to throw to Abreu).

 

I just found an article which makes your argument:

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/i...without-fielder

 

I'm going to study it, because I'm afraid that I am one of those ignorant, missinformed fans, who still believes in the validity of the "line up protection" concept.

Perhaps you're right, and this article may convince me. My mind is open.

 

Regarding Abreu's success, in spite of the lack of protection. I think that we are already beginning to see opposing teams pitch around him. I posted some conjecture on that point, before the season started. I speculated that Abreu would probably start out very well, but once he had proven himself to be a real threat, that teams would start pitching around him.

However, if the article which agrees with your position, is right, it shouldn't matter. We'll see.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Lillian

[witesoxfan]

Not really sure what the point of the batting-behind-Miggy stats was - he's always had credible threats behind him is what I gather from it. If you allow Abreu to be treated like a #8 hitter in the NL, he will suffer.

 

For some reason, I doubt that Leury Garcia is going to be the cleanup hitter moving forward. Abreu is not going to get that treatment.

 

What I'm wondering is this...with all the struggles Flowers has had this year, why is no one in this thread suggesting that the Sox give Phegley a look? Wilkins's line is at .295/.338/.570/.909, yet Phegley's at .286/.344/.550/.894 in the same ballpark. And, on top of that, Phegley's done this 2 years in a row and is virtually the same age as Wilkins.

[witesoxfan]

I just found an article which makes your argument:

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/i...without-fielder

 

I'm going to study it, because I'm afraid that I am one of those ignorant, missinformed fans, who still believes in the validity of the "line up protection" concept.

Perhaps you're right, and this article may convince me. My mind is open.

 

Here's a whole list of them, though I don't have time to read them.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=line+up+pro...&gws_rd=ssl

 

Either BP or BTF or FGs did an extensive look into this and the studies have indicated little to no change no matter who was hitting there. Again, the only guy we've ever really been able to say protected the lineup was Barry Bonds, and that was with inferior players hitting in front of him. Aurilia, Santiago, and Snow all good years (Santiago's was more a first good year in a really long time, and even it wasn't that good) hitting in front of Bonds.

[ILMOU]

For some reason, I doubt that Leury Garcia is going to be the cleanup hitter moving forward. Abreu is not going to get that treatment.

 

What I'm wondering is this...with all the struggles Flowers has had this year, why is no one in this thread suggesting that the Sox give Phegley a look? Wilkins's line is at .295/.338/.570/.909, yet Phegley's at .286/.344/.550/.894 in the same ballpark. And, on top of that, Phegley's done this 2 years in a row and is virtually the same age as Wilkins.

Well, AW is left handed and leads his league in HRs, and while his season OPS is only slightly higher than Phegs, it's been about 1200 since the summer equinox, and that's approaching a decent sample size of awesome. Add to that, we've already seen Pheg's inability to adjust to MLB last year and his atrocious receiving skills.

 

That said, Phegs deserves another look based on his bat alone, and maybe his future is as a DH, so yeah let's get him up. However, unlike the others I'm clamoring for, the incumbent Flowers has not yet been "given up on" and the backup can't be sent down.

[witesoxfan]

Dunn hasn't been given up on either. He's at .232/.359/.449/.807 and a 124 wRC+ against RHP this year, which should be his sole role in the lineup.

 

I think the Sox would like to move Dunn shortly but I think there is a non-zero chance that he comes back to the Sox next year. I personally think a change of scenery seems like a good idea for him, but I'm also not him.

 

If it feels like I'm arguing against Wilkins, I'm not. You just have to look at it from the Sox perspective - they have professional scouts who know and see what these guys are doing and have a good feel for how they'd play in the majors. I also don't think it's going to be a big difference if they come up now versus September 1st. I'd also like to see Taylor and Semien up on the roster, as well as maybe Sanchez. They also have to look at what offers they have on the table for a lot of these guys and try and extract any value they can. If Gordon gets hot, maybe they can get a live arm with no control. Maybe some team sees that De Aza is an OK player against righties and they bring him in as a pinch hitter and 4th OF, getting a AAAA reliever who's never put it together at the MLB level. Maybe the Sox convince a team that Adam Dunn is a very valuable guy to have in the 6th spot and they get a toolsy but raw infielder. All of that, especially if they can save money, is valuable to the organization as well.

[ILMOU]

Dunn hasn't been given up on either. He's at .232/.359/.449/.807 and a 124 wRC+ against RHP this year, which should be his sole role in the lineup.

 

I think the Sox would like to move Dunn shortly but I think there is a non-zero chance that he comes back to the Sox next year. I personally think a change of scenery seems like a good idea for him, but I'm also not him.

 

If it feels like I'm arguing against Wilkins, I'm not. You just have to look at it from the Sox perspective - they have professional scouts who know and see what these guys are doing and have a good feel for how they'd play in the majors. I also don't think it's going to be a big difference if they come up now versus September 1st. I'd also like to see Taylor and Semien up on the roster, as well as maybe Sanchez. They also have to look at what offers they have on the table for a lot of these guys and try and extract any value they can. If Gordon gets hot, maybe they can get a live arm with no control. Maybe some team sees that De Aza is an OK player against righties and they bring him in as a pinch hitter and 4th OF, getting a AAAA reliever who's never put it together at the MLB level. Maybe the Sox convince a team that Adam Dunn is a very valuable guy to have in the 6th spot and they get a toolsy but raw infielder. All of that, especially if they can save money, is valuable to the organization as well.

 

I'm with you in the camp of not fully understanding why no one seems interested in Dunn, due to his #'s vs. RHP, but it's become obvious that no one is. Bringing him back next year is a PR nightmare that we're not going to see - non-zero, but pretty close.

 

I understand all of the motivations of your last paragraph, but I feel they are outweighed by the opportunity of an extra month of auditions for 2015.

 

We'll see what is acquired/saved as a result of this more patient approach. If it's peanuts, then it's a fail.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen

[witesoxfan]

And maybe the Sox know they have the next young superstar in Wilkins and are holding him back to save time and save the adjustments pitchers make on him so he can come out of the gates next year on his way to the Sox second straight Rookie of the Year and a runner up finish in the MVP race (to none other than Jose Abreu, of course).

[ILMOU]

And maybe the Sox know they have the next young superstar in Wilkins and are holding him back to save time and save the adjustments pitchers make on him so he can come out of the gates next year on his way to the Sox second straight Rookie of the Year and a runner up finish in the MVP race (to none other than Jose Abreu, of course).

 

Yeah, better to hold off until next June-July to avoid the Super 2.

[ILMOU]

And yet, he continues to rake, 3-5 with 2 2B again last night. OPS now at .916 on the season.

 

His last 50 games:

 

Jun 16 to Aug 11, 2014

50G 213PA 193AB 47R 78H 18 2B 1 3B 18HR 46RBI 18BB 26SO .404BA .455OBP .788SLG 1.243 OPS

 

That's a pretty good slice of let's get a damn look already.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Stan Bahnsen

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

For some reason, I doubt that Leury Garcia is going to be the cleanup hitter moving forward. Abreu is not going to get that treatment.

 

What I'm wondering is this...with all the struggles Flowers has had this year, why is no one in this thread suggesting that the Sox give Phegley a look? Wilkins's line is at .295/.338/.570/.909, yet Phegley's at .286/.344/.550/.894 in the same ballpark. And, on top of that, Phegley's done this 2 years in a row and is virtually the same age as Wilkins.

The need to replace Dunn and his production is the more pressing need ATM plus the need for a power bat from the left side.

[Balta1701]

For some reason, I doubt that Leury Garcia is going to be the cleanup hitter moving forward. Abreu is not going to get that treatment.

 

What I'm wondering is this...with all the struggles Flowers has had this year, why is no one in this thread suggesting that the Sox give Phegley a look? Wilkins's line is at .295/.338/.570/.909, yet Phegley's at .286/.344/.550/.894 in the same ballpark. And, on top of that, Phegley's done this 2 years in a row and is virtually the same age as Wilkins.

Andy Wilkins's defense and pitch calling while mostly DHing and occasionally relieving Abreu at 1b would matter a whole lot less than Phegley's defense while at the plate. Every time he's been mentioned it seems like that's what they focus on now.

[witesoxfan]

Andy Wilkins's defense and pitch calling while mostly DHing and occasionally relieving Abreu at 1b would matter a whole lot less than Phegley's defense while at the plate. Every time he's been mentioned it seems like that's what they focus on now.

 

So then don't have him catch. Start playing him in the outfield. Given the Sox pitching and catching numbers over the past month or so, it's not like Flowers is doing a great job right now anyways.

[oldsox]

So then don't have him catch. Start playing him in the outfield. Given the Sox pitching and catching numbers over the past month or so, it's not like Flowers is doing a great job right now anyways.

Are you being serious, or humorous?

anyway.