John McDonough

[southsider2k5]

btw i am going to use your words,

 

this just reaffirm the idea that the sox do not have a freaking clue on how to take this club to the next step, whether it is owner's fault or the main GM / president.

 

If you are going to live in the past, at least get the details right. The Cubs have existed for a long time before Jed and Theo got here. The passing of the Sox fan base didn't just happen in the last couple of years.

 

That fan loyal fan base gives the franchise the ability to manage their team with a lot more options. Even before Ricketts bought the team, TribCo had one of the worst ownership reputations out there, and guess what... the Cubs still outdrew the Sox.

 

I see many saying that what ownership has done hasn't worked, but how has what the fan base has done worked out?

 

No matter the competence or incompetence level of White Sox management, they will always have a narrower window of opportunity, and fewer tools at their disposal to build a team because of their fan base dynamics. I am not sure why people take such personal offense to that fact, but it is reality, and it should be acknowledged. When you have fewer resources, it is going to be harder to do the same job as someone who has more resources. Any mistakes will be amplified and magnified because they will have less ability to absorb the consequences from that mistake.

 

People who only want to talk about ownership are missing the forest for the trees. This is a question of resources, not being offended because your feelings are hurt by a truth. Now many will only see part of the post and start naming calling again, but what it boils down to is the more resources you can throw at a problem, the most chances you have at solving the problem. It is like wanting to retire, but not funding your 401K, and then wondering why your bank account is so small. Get past the hurt feelings and realize what it means to the franchise.

 

[Hatchetman]

how many people in these few threads today have complained that the Sox don't spend enough on players? I don't recall many if any at all. The problem is they are stupid and short-sighted. $40 million in salary down the toilet this year on 4 bums they acquired. Decades of playing cheap with the minor league system. Finally that seems to have been changed a couple years ago, but assuming that problem is solved it will take another 5-10 years to see the full benefit.

[LDF]

LDF:

 

The fact that the Sox basically were not able to be seen by Chicagoans when they first moved to WFLD (because of the technical issues as well as older TV sets not getting the channel without a converter box) and then SportsVision for the 80's meant generations of kids grew up as Cub fans because that's basically all they could get.

 

It was a major decision that badly impacted the franchise in my opinion.

 

Mark

 

i am with you on that, but i really didn't want to bring up that.

 

but that is a great point.

[shysocks]

Wrigley Field is a gross old dump national treasure that renders any comparison pointless. Nobody should be compared to the Cubs. They are an anomaly. No argument comparing Sox and Cubs attendance should go more than ten posts without somebody acknowledging this.

 

So here's the acknowledgement.

[southsider2k5]

If you are going to live in the past, at least get the details right. The Cubs have existed for a long time before Jed and Theo got here. The passing of the Sox fan base didn't just happen in the last couple of years.

 

That fan loyal fan base gives the franchise the ability to manage their team with a lot more options. Even before Ricketts bought the team, TribCo had one of the worst ownership reputations out there, and guess what... the Cubs still outdrew the Sox.

 

I see many saying that what ownership has done hasn't worked, but how has what the fan base has done worked out?

 

No matter the competence or incompetence level of White Sox management, they will always have a narrower window of opportunity, and fewer tools at their disposal to build a team because of their fan base dynamics. I am not sure why people take such personal offense to that fact, but it is reality, and it should be acknowledged. When you have fewer resources, it is going to be harder to do the same job as someone who has more resources. Any mistakes will be amplified and magnified because they will have less ability to absorb the consequences from that mistake.

 

People who only want to talk about ownership are missing the forest for the trees. This is a question of resources, not being offended because your feelings are hurt by a truth. Now many will only see part of the post and start naming calling again, but what it boils down to is the more resources you can throw at a problem, the most chances you have at solving the problem. It is like wanting to retire, but not funding your 401K, and then wondering why your bank account is so small. Get past the hurt feelings and realize what it means to the franchise.

 

 

how many people in these few threads today have complained that the Sox don't spend enough on players? I don't recall many if any at all. The problem is they are stupid and short-sighted. $40 million in salary down the toilet this year on 4 bums they acquired. Decades of playing cheap with the minor league system. Finally that seems to have been changed a couple years ago, but assuming that problem is solved it will take another 5-10 years to see the full benefit.

 

Again, take Edwin Jackson from the Cubs. They make a mistake, no big deal, they just go out and sign Jon Lester instead. For us, John Danks arm falls off and we hope he can rebuild his value enough to be able to deal him without losing too much more money.

 

For the White Sox historically it has been EITHER fund the farm system OR add players to the major league team. For the Sox to fund the minors at that sort of level, it requires less money spent at the major league level. Teams with higher resources do both.

[LDF]

If you are going to live in the past, at least get the details right. The Cubs have existed for a long time before Jed and Theo got here. The passing of the Sox fan base didn't just happen in the last couple of years.

 

That fan loyal fan base gives the franchise the ability to manage their team with a lot more options. Even before Ricketts bought the team, TribCo had one of the worst ownership reputations out there, and guess what... the Cubs still outdrew the Sox.

 

I see many saying that what ownership has done hasn't worked, but how has what the fan base has done worked out?

 

No matter the competence or incompetence level of White Sox management, they will always have a narrower window of opportunity, and fewer tools at their disposal to build a team because of their fan base dynamics. I am not sure why people take such personal offense to that fact, but it is reality, and it should be acknowledged. When you have fewer resources, it is going to be harder to do the same job as someone who has more resources. Any mistakes will be amplified and magnified because they will have less ability to absorb the consequences from that mistake.

 

People who only want to talk about ownership are missing the forest for the trees. This is a question of resources, not being offended because your feelings are hurt by a truth. Now many will only see part of the post and start naming calling again, but what it boils down to is the more resources you can throw at a problem, the most chances you have at solving the problem. It is like wanting to retire, but not funding your 401K, and then wondering why your bank account is so small. Get past the hurt feelings and realize what it means to the franchise.

 

SS2k5, you make a very compelling counter.... really

 

but i will go to the attendance.

 

in the early 80-85 the sox outdrew the other team

86-90 the sox barely made 1.0 and i think that was the sportvision time. i am be wrong on the time.

90-94 the sox kick the other team arse. 2.9 thru 2.5

96 - thru to the other stats, has been dominated by the norht side.

 

i am not offended by this or by as you say the truth according to you.

 

the truth of the matter, the sox have had opportunities to really take over the chi media and yet, the short sightedness of the present owners have prevented it. how many ways does this needs to be explain.

 

now the sox has set up secondary companies to max the profit without running under the umbrella of the sox org. there is the real profits are, the north iside never did this and will after their tv deal ends with CSN. so again, you are saying that the sox do not have the resources and again you are wrong.

 

you choose to believe the stats that the company wants to spew without even giving it a second thought.

 

no offense but are you really that gullible.

[LDF]

how many people in these few threads today have complained that the Sox don't spend enough on players? I don't recall many if any at all. The problem is they are stupid and short-sighted. $40 million in salary down the toilet this year on 4 bums they acquired. Decades of playing cheap with the minor league system. Finally that seems to have been changed a couple years ago, but assuming that problem is solved it will take another 5-10 years to see the full benefit.

 

you are obsessing with the 40 mil..... i think that in itself is subjective ....

 

btw, i have been one of the biggest component of the sox not paying enuf.

 

i think the nice discussion with ss2k5 is proof of this point.

[southsider2k5]

SS2k5, you make a very compelling counter.... really

 

but i will go to the attendance.

 

in the early 80-85 the sox outdrew the other team

86-90 the sox barely made 1.0 and i think that was the sportvision time. i am be wrong on the time.

90-94 the sox kick the other team arse. 2.9 thru 2.5

96 - thru to the other stats, has been dominated by the norht side.

 

i am not offended by this or by as you say the truth according to you.

 

the truth of the matter, the sox have had opportunities to really take over the chi media and yet, the short sightedness of the present owners have prevented it. how many ways does this needs to be explain.

 

now the sox has set up secondary companies to max the profit without running under the umbrella of the sox org. there is the real profits are, the north iside never did this and will after their tv deal ends with CSN. so again, you are saying that the sox do not have the resources and again you are wrong.

 

you choose to believe the stats that the company wants to spew without even giving it a second thought.

 

no offense but are you really that gullible.

 

No, gullible is for those who can't see more than one side in reality, and instead opt for the most simple answer.

[LDF]

Wrigley Field is a gross old dump national treasure that renders any comparison pointless. Nobody should be compared to the Cubs. They are an anomaly. No argument comparing Sox and Cubs attendance should go more than ten posts without somebody acknowledging this.

 

So here's the acknowledgement.

 

you do make a valid point,

 

however the sox had a opportunity to really do something and take over the media attentions. if the sox has won division titles and continued to be in the running for the playoff or in the playoff, they would have been a winner and sports news love a winner.

 

look at the yanks, dodgers etc....

 

the owners didn't want to spend the money and claim poor us, we do not have the resources to compete yet in the 90/s they were bringing in 2.9 mil in attendance.

[Hatchetman]

Pay top $$ for stars, not replaceable bums. Laroche? GMAFB. A decent organization signs guys like that off the street!

[LDF]

Pay top $$ for stars, not replaceable bums. Laroche? GMAFB. A decent organization signs guys like that off the street!

 

ok... i like to see you get john smith off the street to do better.

 

but then again what this is called is hind-sight. where was your complaining last yr????

[Hatchetman]

I've been complaining for 25 years but nobody listens.

 

Drafting Bobby Seay and Jeff Weaver and refusing to sign them. Drafting bums like Royce Ring and loads of other guys just because they will sign. Having virtually no scouting infrastructure in Latin America for decades.

 

 

[OmarComing25]

Pay top $$ for stars, not replaceable bums. Laroche? GMAFB. A decent organization signs guys like that off the street!

Just checked the thread where we signed LaRoche and only a couple posters were against the move at the time, and even those posters thought the worst case scenario was a 1 WAR type season. But now everyone is coming out of the woodwork saying they knew he was a bum all along. There was risk due to his age of course, but there are still plenty of old guys doing well this year (A-Rod, Beltran, Burnett, etc.), the problem was we were screwed if he didn't perform because of our other holes. The good news is he's only here one more season and his contract is far from top $$. It was a relatively low risk move that didn't work out. He wasn't blocking anyone, and if we hadn't decided to try and compete this year 2016 probably wasn't going to have high expectations either.

Edited September 29, 2015 by OmarComing25

[Hatchetman]

I'm just saying: why not invest the $40 million to build the best minor league infrastructure in baseball instead of a wild-ass gamble on contending for a wild card? How many scouts could you hire with that? Every one of them could have a PhD in statistics!

[southsider2k5]

I'm just saying: why not invest the $40 million to build the best minor league infrastructure in baseball instead of a wild-ass gamble on contending for a wild card? How many scouts could you hire with that? Every one of them could have a PhD in statistics!

 

Good lord I can imagine the meltdown over that one...

[LDF]

Just checked the thread where we signed LaRoche and only a couple posters were against the move at the time, and even those posters thought the worst case scenario was a 1 WAR type season. But now everyone is coming out of the woodwork saying they knew he was a bum all along. There was risk due to his age of course, but there are still plenty of old guys doing well this year (A-Rod, Beltran, Burnett, etc.), the problem was we were screwed if he didn't perform because of our other holes. The good news is he's only here one more season and his contract is far from top $$. It was a relatively low risk move that didn't work out. He wasn't blocking anyone, and if we hadn't decided to try and compete this year 2016 probably wasn't going to have high expectations either.

 

thanks for doing to leg work, i was too lazy.

 

hindsight really is in play here.

[Hatchetman]

hindsight really is in play here.

 

 

C'mon now. Who signs a gold-glover and puts him at DH? only the sox.

[Hatchetman]

spend it however you want. just not on old bums when your team sucks.

 

[greg775]

Pay top $$ for stars, not replaceable bums. Laroche? GMAFB. A decent organization signs guys like that off the street!

Horrible signing. I'm just waiting for the Sox to make a move that uh, works! (Besides drafting good pitchers and signing good foreign players of course). Since the Sox seem to only get right the signing of foreign players, I'd continue doing that. LaRoche and Dunn were disasters. Melky is an average bat, not really of value at all since he doesn't hit HRs anymore.

[kitekrazy]

I'm just saying: why not invest the $40 million to build the best minor league infrastructure in baseball instead of a wild-ass gamble on contending for a wild card? How many scouts could you hire with that? Every one of them could have a PhD in statistics!

 

I think the problem is there is no accountability in the farm system. Players still can't run bases. Situational hitting? What's that? Fundamentals? The blame is in the development and scouting. Somehow Buddy Bell has kept his job.

 

[Lip Man 1]

Again, take Edwin Jackson from the Cubs. They make a mistake, no big deal, they just go out and sign Jon Lester instead. For us, John Danks arm falls off and we hope he can rebuild his value enough to be able to deal him without losing too much more money.

 

For the White Sox historically it has been EITHER fund the farm system OR add players to the major league team. For the Sox to fund the minors at that sort of level, it requires less money spent at the major league level. Teams with higher resources do both.

 

And who is to say what those resource limits are? Until an independent economist gets to take a look at Sox finances we'll never know what they could or could not do. Circumstantial evidence over a number of years (to go along with the revenue being generated by MLB) points to the possibility of the Sox being able to spend more and do both if they chose to.

 

It was like when Veeck owned the team the second time, conventional thinking was he had no money. That was far from the truth, you look at the names on the Sox Board of Directors under Veeck and you found some of the richest people in America like the guy who owned Pizer Chemicals. It was a matter if pride with Veeck that he refused to go back and ask them for more money and promised them a profit every season.

 

The reality was the Sox could have spent like the Yankees if they wanted to...they chose not to do so.

 

I get the sense that at times that same philosophy was in place with the Sox and may still be.

 

Just don't know for sure.

 

But I go back to my original point. Given the tax payer funded stadium, given the lease advantages from the state, given the improvements made to the ballpark (and not by JR's money) the White Sox have the first, second, third obligation to field a good competitive club on a consistent basis BEFORE having the right (or the gall) to call out their fan base in any way shape or form.

 

And that goes for their supporters wherever they may be. The ownership group has done some very good things...they've also done some really stupid things which have put them in the position they are in. The fans didn't sign Adam LaRoche, the fans didn't trade for Nick Swisher, the fans didn't sign Adam Dunn just to name a few examples or give a big contract to a stiff like Jeff Keppinger. That was ownership / front office. Period.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mark

Edited September 30, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[southsider2k5]

And who is to say what those resource limits are? Until an independent economist gets to take a look at Sox finances we'll never know what they could or could not do. Circumstantial evidence over a number of years (to go along with the revenue being generated by MLB) points to the possibility of the Sox being able to spend more and do both if they chose to.

 

It was like when Veeck owned the team the second time, conventional thinking was he had no money. That was far from the truth, you look at the names on the Sox Board of Directors under Veeck and you found some of the richest people in America like the guy who owned Pizer Chemicals. It was a matter if pride with Veeck that he refused to go back and ask them for more money and promised them a profit every season.

 

The reality was the Sox could have spent like the Yankees if they wanted to...they chose not to do so.

 

I get the sense that at times that same philosophy was in place with the Sox and may still be.

 

Just don't know for sure.

 

But I go back to my original point. Given the tax payer funded stadium, given the lease advantages from the state, given the improvements made to the ballpark (and not by JR's money) the White Sox have the first, second, third obligation to field a good competitive club on a consistent basis BEFORE having the right (or the gall) to call out their fan base in any way shape or form.

 

And that goes for their supporters wherever they may be. The ownership group has done some very good things...they've also done some really stupid things which have put them in the position they are in. The fans didn't sign Adam LaRoche, the fans didn't trade for Nick Swisher, the fans didn't sign Adam Dunn just to name a few examples or give a big contract to a stiff like Jeff Keppinger. That was ownership / front office. Period.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mark

 

I actually laughed out loud at that statement. I am not quite sure what an economist would do with financial statements, but it would be entertaining to watch. Also the idea of demanding that a sports franchise should have to be subject to an audit just for the sake of the fans is laugh out loud funny. I won't even get into the false dichotomy of being worth a lot of money meaning that you automatically have the ability to spend it on something else.

 

 

[Lip Man 1]

I actually laughed out loud at that statement. I am not quite sure what an economist would do with financial statements, but it would be entertaining to watch. Also the idea of demanding that a sports franchise should have to be subject to an audit just for the sake of the fans is laugh out loud funny. I won't even get into the false dichotomy of being worth a lot of money meaning that you automatically have the ability to spend it on something else.

 

My point is there is plenty of evidence showing the Sox could actually spend a lot more money if they wanted to both at the major league level and the minor league system.

 

I've heard from two individuals over the years with connections to the Sox Board of Directors. They have told me on separate occasions the Sox haven't lost money in years.

 

But feel free to keep blaming the fans who pays the freight instead of the millionairs with all the financial advantages. That's your choice and I laugh out loud at anyone who takes that approach.

 

Mark

[Hatchetman]

An economist would look at the income statement and say, s*** LOOK AT ALL THOSE DIVIDENDS PAID OUT!

[southsider2k5]

My point is there is plenty of evidence showing the Sox could actually spend a lot more money if they wanted to both at the major league level and the minor league system.

 

I've heard from two individuals over the years with connections to the Sox Board of Directors. They have told me on separate occasions the Sox haven't lost money in years.

 

But feel free to keep blaming the fans who pays the freight instead of the millionairs with all the financial advantages. That's your choice and I laugh out loud at anyone who takes that approach.

 

Mark

 

Of course that is what you took from all of that.