2016 Hall of Fame

[caulfield12]

The PERCEPTION is that Ortiz was better because we heard about him 10X as much because of the ESPN/East Coast bias thing.

 

If he'd remained on the Twins and put up those same numbers, he might not be getting into the Hall. The three World Series titles after 80 odd years without one has inflated his influence, as well as having Manny Ramirez, an even better hitter in his prime, paired with him.

 

You'd have to argue Ramirez and Miggy are the two best overall hitters (hitting for both high average and power) of the last two decades of players. Bonds has to be somewhere in that conversation as well, depending on how you view him.

[LittleHurt05]

The PERCEPTION is that Ortiz was better because we heard about him 10X as much because of the ESPN/East Coast bias thing.

 

If he'd remained on the Twins and put up those same numbers, he might not be getting into the Hall. The three World Series titles after 80 odd years without one has inflated his influence, as well as having Manny Ramirez, an even better hitter in his prime, paired with him.

 

You'd have to argue Ramirez and Miggy are the two best overall hitters (hitting for both high average and power) of the last two decades of players. Bonds has to be somewhere in that conversation as well, depending on how you view him.

 

Bonds >>>>> Ramirez and Miggy. There is no conversation

[LittleHurt05]

Looking at the numbers why wouldn't anyone suspect Edgar Martinez of juicing? Had an over 1.000 OPS his age 32-37 seasons. Had a better year as a 40 year old than a 27 year old.

 

Maybe his lack of being in the spotlight actually worked in his favor.

 

Bret Boone was in Seattle for some of those later seasons too

[Dick Allen]

I wouldn't hold Edgar being a DH against him. It has been a position for over 40 years. And it isn't a position a lot of guys have been able to excel. Adam LaRoche isn't the first guy to struggle DHing. Voters need to deal with it.

 

I do think, if you are going to hold guys out of the HOF on suspicion of PED use, however, he has to be on that list. You have to suspect based on the numbers.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I wouldn't hold Edgar being a DH against him. It has been a position for over 40 years. And it isn't a position a lot of guys have been able to excel. Adam LaRoche isn't the first guy to struggle DHing. Voters need to deal with it.

 

I do think, if you are going to hold guys out of the HOF on suspicion of PED use, however, he has to be on that list. You have to suspect based on the numbers.

 

I think you will see the HOF voters view on the DH start to shift as well with the revocation of the voting privileges for the old curmudgeons that haven't covered baseball in decades.

[ptatc]

It's a HOF without some of the best players to ever play the game. It's a joke.

Only those who cheated the game. They do not deserrve the fame.

[3GamesToLove]

Who goes to the ceremony representing the Expos with Raines if he gets in?

 

It can't be Loria or John Henry...one would hope.

 

Jonah Keri.

[ptatc]

Yeah but look at those numbers. In 1995, Martinez was a 7.0 WAR DH! Jesus Christ. OBP of .470. How do you even slug .628 while only hitting 29 homers? 52 doubles is how, lol. I get that the DH can be a penalty, but that guy was MASHING on an otherwordly level for a pretty sustained amount of time.

 

I mean, if the DH penalty knocks those numbers down THAT much, then I think you'd have to make an argument that no relief pitcher should ever be considered for the HOF under any circumstances. I don't think anyone will argue that Mariano Rivera shouldn't be in, yet Edgar Martinez was substantially more productive than Rivera.

 

Martinez was NINETEEN WAR better than Ortiz currently is, despite playing in over 800 fewer games. I apologize for saying Ortiz was better at peak -- I didn't have the numbers in front of me.

Ok. He was a better hitter but does the fact that he couldn't play defense make him a better player? I understand your point. Some will look at more than hitying and say he wasn't a baseball player just a hitter, like some will say kickers aren't really football players. Personally I wouldn't vote for eitherl

[ptatc]

I wouldn't hold Edgar being a DH against him. It has been a position for over 40 years. And it isn't a position a lot of guys have been able to excel. Adam LaRoche isn't the first guy to struggle DHing. Voters need to deal with it.

 

I do think, if you are going to hold guys out of the HOF on suspicion of PED use, however, he has to be on that list. You have to suspect based on the numbers.

I think if you saw him you would change your mind. Its nit to say that he positively didn't but he wouldn't have been high on the list of suspects.

[3GamesToLove]

You'd have to argue Ramirez and Miggy are the two best overall hitters (hitting for both high average and power) of the last two decades of players. Bonds has to be somewhere in that conversation as well, depending on how you view him.

 

 

Bonds >>>>> Ramirez and Miggy. There is no conversation

 

Seriously. Bonds is the best offensive player since Ted Williams, and it's not even close.

 

Also, funny that you qualify Bonds with "depending on how you view him," but include no such disclaimer for Manny, who actually tested positive twice.

 

Also, like Hawk always does, you forgot Albert Pujols. And a guy named Frank Thomas, depending on where you delineate "the last two decades of players."

Edited January 6, 2016 by 3GamesToLove

[Dick Allen]

I think if you saw him you would change your mind. Its nit to say that he positively didn't but he wouldn't have been high on the list of suspects.

Yes but his numbers and when he put up those numbers defy aging. If we are all worried about the White Sox giving a soon to be 32 year old a 4 year contract, look at Edgar Martinez. He was about to hit 6 peak seasons. I don't think humans or training regimes have devolved since that time. It has to be something. Whether it's steroids or greenies or corking bats, there has to be something or why don't guys do that anymore? Edgar Martinez's aging is more similar to Bonds and Clemens than just about any player.

 

So if guys get denied HOF entry based on rumors, look at facts. His performance defies nature and logic.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Dick Allen

[ptatc]

Yes but his numbers and when he put up those numbers defy aging. If we are all worried about the White Sox giving a soon to be 32 year old a 4 year contract, look at Edgar Martinez. He was about to hit 6 peak seasons. I don't think humans or training regimes have devolved since that time. It has to be something. Whether it's steroids or greenies or corking bats, there has to be something or why don't guys do that anymore? Edgar Martinez's aging is more similar to Bonds and Clemens than just about any player.

I agree, its a personal call. However if you go by numbers al8ne being the judge of use do you need to throw Nolan Ryan out as he did performed well into his 40's. I would not hold him out based on zero evidence even rumors that he used PED. Plus as I said if you saw him at the time there was no indication that he did.

[NorthSideSox72]

I wouldn't hold Edgar being a DH against him. It has been a position for over 40 years. And it isn't a position a lot of guys have been able to excel. Adam LaRoche isn't the first guy to struggle DHing. Voters need to deal with it.

 

I do think, if you are going to hold guys out of the HOF on suspicion of PED use, however, he has to be on that list. You have to suspect based on the numbers.

The bolded I have a problem with. I'm one of the people saying keep Bonds and Clemens out, but it's because there is significant evidence they used. Numbers are not evidence of anything - it's just too derivative. It's like saying someone was DUI based purely on the speed on a radar gun; yes the result is effected, but no, it doesn't work the other direction. It doesn't follow logically and doesn't stand up to typical legal scrutiny as useful evidence.

 

[flavum]

181 votes...about 40% of the total...

 

Griffey - 100.0

Piazza - 86.2

Bagwell - 77.3

Raines - 76.2

 

Taking away the 100 or so votes of non-baseball writers from last year absolutely helped the percentages this year, but I think only two guys are getting in this year.

 

It's too bad for Raines, but hopefully he gets over the finish line next year.

[southsider2k5]

I think you will see the HOF voters view on the DH start to shift as well with the revocation of the voting privileges for the old curmudgeons that haven't covered baseball in decades.

 

As well they should. The HOF should reflect the game, DH's and Closers should be a part of that considering their impact on the game over the last 40 to 45 years.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Seriously. Bonds is the best offensive player since Ted Williams, and it's not even close.

 

Also, funny that you qualify Bonds with "depending on how you view him," but include no such disclaimer for Manny, who actually tested positive twice.

 

Also, like Hawk always does, you forgot Albert Pujols. And a guy named Frank Thomas, depending on where you delineate "the last two decades of players."

 

Before Bonds got on the steroids, Frank Thomas was a better hitter.

 

Through their age 32 season (the last season before Frank started a seemingly never ending string of injuries and the end of what is normally considered 'prime' for a player)

 

Bonds - .289/.408/.551, 374 HRs, 1094 RBIs, 359 2Bs, 1227 BBs, 958 Ks in 7403 PAs

 

Thomas - .321/.440/.579, 344 HRs, 1183 RBIs, 361 2Bs, 1188 BBs, 835 Ks in 6799 PAs

 

If Thomas had the same number of PAs he would have had 375 HRs, 1288 RBIs, 393 2Bs, 1294 BBs, 909 Ks

 

So Frank had a higher average, higher OBP, higher SLG, higher HR rate, higher RBI rate, higher 2B rate, higher walk rate and lower strikeout rate. How was prime, pre-steroid Bonds a better hitter than prime Frank Thomas again?

[lasttriptotulsa]

181 votes...about 40% of the total...

 

Griffey - 100.0

Piazza - 86.2

Bagwell - 77.3

Raines - 76.2

 

Taking away the 100 or so votes of non-baseball writers from last year absolutely helped the percentages this year, but I think only two guys are getting in this year.

 

It's too bad for Raines, but hopefully he gets over the finish line next year.

 

Guys typically get a boost in their last year. There are no slam dunk candidates next year so I think Raines should get in no problem.

[3GamesToLove]

Before Bonds got on the steroids, Frank Thomas was a better hitter.

 

Through their age 32 season (the last season before Frank started a seemingly never ending string of injuries and the end of what is normally considered 'prime' for a player)

 

Bonds - .289/.408/.551, 374 HRs, 1094 RBIs, 359 2Bs, 1227 BBs, 958 Ks in 7403 PAs

 

Thomas - .321/.440/.579, 344 HRs, 1183 RBIs, 361 2Bs, 1188 BBs, 835 Ks in 6799 PAs

 

If Thomas had the same number of PAs he would have had 375 HRs, 1288 RBIs, 393 2Bs, 1294 BBs, 909 Ks

 

So Frank had a higher average, higher OBP, higher SLG, higher HR rate, higher RBI rate, higher 2B rate, higher walk rate and lower strikeout rate. How was prime, pre-steroid Bonds a better hitter than prime Frank Thomas again?

 

Where in my post did I say "pre-steroid suspicion Barry Bonds?"

Edited January 6, 2016 by 3GamesToLove

[caulfield12]

.289 isn't exactly a pure hitter.

 

But the most lethal/intimidating/dangerous on the juice, sure....

[ptatc]

Before Bonds got on the steroids, Frank Thomas was a better hitter.

 

Through their age 32 season (the last season before Frank started a seemingly never ending string of injuries and the end of what is normally considered 'prime' for a player)

 

Bonds - .289/.408/.551, 374 HRs, 1094 RBIs, 359 2Bs, 1227 BBs, 958 Ks in 7403 PAs

 

Thomas - .321/.440/.579, 344 HRs, 1183 RBIs, 361 2Bs, 1188 BBs, 835 Ks in 6799 PAs

 

If Thomas had the same number of PAs he would have had 375 HRs, 1288 RBIs, 393 2Bs, 1294 BBs, 909 Ks

 

So Frank had a higher average, higher OBP, higher SLG, higher HR rate, higher RBI rate, higher 2B rate, higher walk rate and lower strikeout rate. How was prime, pre-steroid Bonds a better hitter than prime Frank Thomas again?

Factoring the elite defense bonds provided in LF as well as stolen bases and base running and I think they are both HOF caliber players. Thomas was the better pure hitter.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Where in my post did I say "pre-steroid suspicion Barry Bonds?"

 

Late '30s roided up Bonds's numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. There is no validity to those numbers at all.

[OmarComing25]

Late '30s roided up Bonds's numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. There is no validity to those numbers at all.

I don't know about that, given that a lot of his peers were also roided up, the fact that Bonds was still so far ahead of them has to mean something.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I don't know about that, given that a lot of his peers were also roided up, the fact that Bonds was still so far ahead of them has to mean something.

 

I think it just goes to show how powerful PEDs are. They can take a mediocre player in Sosa and turn him into a would be HOFer or take a HOFer in Bonds and suddenly make him better than Ted Williams starting at age 36. I really think, for the most part, that the HOFers from that era are generally clean. That is why Bonds's numbers stand out so much. It is typically the mediocre to average players that turn to PEDs and make them look much better than they already are. It is when PEDs are given to the best of the best like Bonds or Clemens that it just turns into a joke.

 

Look at the last few years of HOF inductees and soon to be inductees that played through the steroid era. There has not been an ounce of suspicion surrounding these guys.

 

Thome

Griffey

Smoltz

Martinez

Johnson

Thomas

Maddux

Glavine

Larkin

Alomar

Ripken

Gwynn

 

Can you imagine the numbers those guys would have put up if they used PEDs?

 

[flavum]

Up to 194 votes...

 

Bagwell - 76.8

Raines - 76.3

[ptatc]

I think it just goes to show how powerful PEDs are. They can take a mediocre player in Sosa and turn him into a would be HOFer or take a HOFer in Bonds and suddenly make him better than Ted Williams starting at age 36. I really think, for the most part, that the HOFers from that era are generally clean. That is why Bonds's numbers stand out so much. It is typically the mediocre to average players that turn to PEDs and make them look much better than they already are. It is when PEDs are given to the best of the best like Bonds or Clemens that it just turns into a joke.

 

Look at the last few years of HOF inductees and soon to be inductees that played through the steroid era. There has not been an ounce of suspicion surrounding these guys.

 

Thome

Griffey

Smoltz

Martinez

Johnson

Thomas

Maddux

Glavine

Larkin

Alomar

Ripken

Gwynn

 

Can you imagine the numbers those guys would have put up if they used PEDs?

This is what always made me laugh. The early 2000's diamondbacks are the ones that stick in my mind. Guys like Jay Bell, Steve finley and Luis Guitierrez ( I think that was his name) hitting nearly 40 HR when in other years they didn't hit 20.

Edited January 6, 2016 by ptatc