January 6, 201610 yr QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 08:57 AM) Ok. He was a better hitter but does the fact that he couldn't play defense make him a better player? The way I look at it is that the WAR side of it bakes in the penalty. Even with the DH penalty knocking a win and a half off of every season, he still comes out looking like he belongs. So to me, that means his offense was superlative enough to put him in.
January 6, 201610 yr QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 07:50 AM) Only those who cheated the game. They do not deserrve the fame. I disagree. You have absolutely no idea who cheated the game and who didn't. There are people in there currently who have cheated the game most likely.
January 6, 201610 yr QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 10:55 AM) The way I look at it is that the WAR side of it bakes in the penalty. Even with the DH penalty knocking a win and a half off of every season, he still comes out looking like he belongs. So to me, that means his offense was superlative enough to put him in. This will be the question that the voters need to answer. I agree with you but so far the voters don't seem to like the "DH mostly" player. I look at it like Ozzie Smith. It took the voters longer than it should have to let him in because he was seen as a "defense only" player for years.
January 6, 201610 yr Author Raines is a case I just don't understand how we're missing. And I admit it, I didn't think he was a HOF for a long time. Probably because walks and OBP weren't valued like they should have been. When you take his career from 1981-1995 (10 years with the Expos and 5 with the White Sox) He played 12.5 yrs worth of games out of the 15 years. Missed about a season of games with strikes in 1981 and 94/95, and a month in 1987 because of collusion--which could have cost him an MVP. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...atting_standard He should have been a lock a long time ago. Edited January 6, 201610 yr by flavum
January 6, 201610 yr QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 10:08 AM) I think it just goes to show how powerful PEDs are. They can take a mediocre player in Sosa and turn him into a would be HOFer or take a HOFer in Bonds and suddenly make him better than Ted Williams starting at age 36. I really think, for the most part, that the HOFers from that era are generally clean. That is why Bonds's numbers stand out so much. It is typically the mediocre to average players that turn to PEDs and make them look much better than they already are. It is when PEDs are given to the best of the best like Bonds or Clemens that it just turns into a joke. Look at the last few years of HOF inductees and soon to be inductees that played through the steroid era. There has not been an ounce of suspicion surrounding these guys. Thome Griffey Smoltz Martinez Johnson Thomas Maddux Glavine Larkin Alomar Ripken Gwynn Can you imagine the numbers those guys would have put up if they used PEDs? Were these players tested for steroids by MLB? They were not during the majority of their careers. How can you be so sure they were clean? PEDs affect everyone differently. Griffey kept getting hurt. There is plenty of suspicion about Pedro. How did Randy Johnson improve with age? Where is the proof that these guys were so clean?
January 6, 201610 yr QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 12:43 PM) Were these players tested for steroids by MLB? They were not during the majority of their careers. How can you be so sure they were clean? PEDs affect everyone differently. Griffey kept getting hurt. There is plenty of suspicion about Pedro. How did Randy Johnson improve with age? Where is the proof that these guys were so clean? Prove they cheated. Iknow you want it the other way but look at it from this point of view. Whenyou want to give someone an award or raise do you look at what they may have done or what you know they did? We know for a fact that some did. Whether it was because their ego was so big that they ignored they couldn't resist or they were too stupid and got caight. You penalize the ones who got caught.
January 6, 201610 yr QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 12:58 PM) Prove they cheated. Iknow you want it the other way but look at it from this point of view. Whenyou want to give someone an award or raise do you look at what they may have done or what you know they did? We know for a fact that some did. Whether it was because their ego was so big that they ignored they couldn't resist or they were too stupid and got caight. You penalize the ones who got caught. I'd be fine with that if they were caught by drug testing with MLB, not random luck in the outside world. MLB didn't care about testing, and some would say encouraged the steroid use to help "save" the game and grow it around the strike. Treat everyone from that era the same, it was part of the game, no one knows the truth.
January 6, 201610 yr QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 10:53 AM) This is what always made me laugh. The early 2000's diamondbacks are the ones that stick in my mind. Guys like Jay Bell, Steve finley and Luis Guitierrez ( I think that was his name) hitting nearly 40 HR when in other years they didn't hit 20. You mean this guy? http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gonzalu01.shtml That's a pretty amazing spike in power he had in '01.
January 6, 201610 yr https://twitter.com/williamnyy23/status/684832975725395970 If you don't wanna click, basically the guy took screenshots of the pages on the HoF website. For Raines and Bagwell they did not exist, and the pages for Piazza and Griffey deny access to the user. Think this pretty well clues us in. Edited January 6, 201610 yr by shysocks
January 6, 201610 yr QUOTE (shysocks @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 02:53 PM) https://twitter.com/williamnyy23/status/684832975725395970 If you don't wanna click, basically the guy took screenshots of the pages on the HoF website. For Raines and Bagwell they did not exist, and the pages for Piazza and Griffey deny access to the user. Think this pretty well clues us in. That really sucks for Raines.
January 6, 201610 yr QUOTE (shysocks @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 02:53 PM) https://twitter.com/williamnyy23/status/684832975725395970 If you don't wanna click, basically the guy took screenshots of the pages on the HoF website. For Raines and Bagwell they did not exist, and the pages for Piazza and Griffey deny access to the user. Think this pretty well clues us in. Just tried it and I got the denied access page for Raines, Piazza and Griffey but not for Bagwell.
January 6, 201610 yr QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 02:57 PM) Just tried it and I got the denied access page for Raines, Piazza and Griffey but not for Bagwell. Ooh, the plot thickens. Probably just weren't done creating the pages.
January 6, 201610 yr QUOTE (shysocks @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 02:59 PM) Ooh, the plot thickens. Probably just weren't done creating the pages. Same thing happens with Trevor Hoffman though, weird.
January 6, 201610 yr Raines is the second best lead off hitter of all time, its a crime he isnt in yet
January 6, 201610 yr Author Another thing to look for is Sosa staying on the ballot. 7.6% with 47% of the ballots public. Looking like Edmonds will not get 5%, which I'm totally ok with. Good player, but no way he belongs in. Edited January 6, 201610 yr by flavum
January 7, 201610 yr QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 6, 2016 -> 07:50 AM) Only those who cheated the game. They do not deserrve the fame. Time to get past this. Baseball history is littered with cheaters. The hall is full of them. They simply didn't have the awareness at the time. Time to let the best players in. Period.
January 7, 201610 yr So is my unopened copy of Ken Griffey Jr. Baseball for Nintendo 64 worth more now? I'd like to retire, please.
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.