Milkman delivers

QUOTE(TheHammer @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 04:09 PM) Wow, Abreu you COULD have taken steroids! WHAT A REVELATION. Anyone COULD have taken steroids. Being good at hitting HRs from BP pitchers has nothing to do with taking steroids. Some guys can do it and some guys can't. The idea that he didn't get tired seems contrived to me because he had like 8 more HRs in the first round than he did in the next two rounds combined so obviously fatigue was taking its toll. Not that it matters, it isn't like he is lifting more and more on a bench press when he should be getting tired, he is hitting BP fastballs out of the park. There is no real known limit to when you shouldnt be able to do it anymore. I also find it moronic to speculate that any player who seems to have a lot of strength is on steroids. I hear people talk like you can't be ripped and you cant have a lot of muscle mass unless you are on steroids. Also, that you can't go from a skinny guy to a muscular one without roids, why lunacy. So no one works hard? Not one guy just lifts weights? EVERYONE is a juicer? These accusations against Rowand are completely unfair and the people making them are douches. Unless you shot him up yourself the reality is you dont know. And besides that the argument for it is fairly weak. Dear Mr. TheHammer, Thanks. Signed, Douche P.S. - Chubby face and body with a lot of power plus high endurance (much higher than any other contestant ever) plus 500 foot bombs equal suspicion in my book. P.P.S - The accusations against Rowand aren't all that unfair at all. He's a solid piece of muscle, has a break out year, and then his power is suddenly gone. That, my friend, will draw suspicion to just about any athlete.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 03:45 PM) ahh hah, (not with reference to you) so if the other teams get better then its good to trade? The twins and Tribe will make trades, why in the world would the sox sit on there hands. 28 games over .500, that's why. If you don't believe in this team, why don't you just get out?!

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 03:44 PM) If the Twins make another trade it'll be for another bat, I'm fairly certain in that respect. As in Joe Randa? That's pretty much the only place that they can now upgrade, considering there's no SS's on the market...at least that I know of.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 03:36 PM) He is represented by Boras, and he has played for minnesota. Guess where he will go. KW better trade for a starter to top that. If KW knew that Minnesota was about to trade for Rogers, he'd better step in to prevent him from going there or get someone that's better than Rogers.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 03:19 PM) Unfortunately, I have witnessed 3 people take steroids. 1 was when I was trying out for a traveing team and 2 of the players offered me some steroids, I declined, and they both followed by taking 2 pills each right in front of the coach. :headshake The 3rd was when another teenager my age took 1 in the dugot of a little league game on the South East side. Wow, that's some weird stuff. I did a few papers on the effects of steroid use on teenagers. It's so much worse for younger people, especially on the psychological side. Did you happen to notice what kind of steroid it was?

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 03:12 PM) I don't either. I never saw him take them. In fact I've never seen anyone take steroids, but I bet you lunch a bunch of MLB players did, and Mark McGwire was one of them. Exactly

QUOTE(AirScott @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 03:00 PM) yeah they give you stamina to go longer, but for example, the results of lifting steroid-free for 2 hours could be acheived after 1 with steroids. Yes, I know that. Wait, what point were you making again?

QUOTE(RibbieRubarb @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 02:53 PM) I think what we are all trying to say, Milkman, is that there are more reasons to believe he has never taken Steroids then are to the contrary. Yes, I understand that. The point I'm trying to make is that the defenses that some people are making aren't very solid. 24 homers in one round is absolutely ridiculous. Add the fact that all of the other great rounds were mainly put up by juicers, and he still blew them out of the water. That right there gives me some reason to suspect him. Then these defenses about having a sweet swing, taking a pitch between swings, and never suddenly getting bigger aren't very good. Many, many players have sweet swings, including an obvious juicer in McGwire. I don't know if I've ever seen a guy NOT take a pitch or two between swings. And a guy doesn't suddenly have to get bigger in front of our own eyes for him to be on steroids, as shown by Canseco. It seems that people are defending Abreu only because they like him. Let's face it, some guys we like do cheat.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 02:47 PM) He was..??? Giambi's arms, legs, and stomach were rock hard and his face turned into a pumpkin shape. Bobby is fat. In ST he was even a bit jiggly. The guy, IMO, from seeing him up close is just a monster, much like Frank. Frank when he didn't work out got "jiggly" but didn't "shrink" like Sosa and Mark have. All of the accounts I read said that Giambi's face got a bit pudgy from the extra fluids being trapped under the skin. This is supposed to be due to the misuse of whatever steroid he was using. His muscles were rock hard, of course, but he had that layer of fluid. There are a hundred different kind of steroids, so maybe some do just what you said. Many of the details I've read say that stamina also increases. Unless you mean that testosterone shots are taken, because most steroids are taken in conjunction with another drug.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 02:36 PM) Same with Mark. Both of them were tiny runts. Their roid use is obvious. Bobby is mushy big. If he's on roids.. he better get a refund cause they aint working. IMO. Ah, but Giambi was also mushy big. It all depends on the way you use the steroid. Giambi's case was gross misuse and overuse of the drug.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 02:34 PM) And Frank absolutely never juiced. A medical issue in his family where he donated bone marrow would have not been possible if he juiced. I've never insinuated that Frank did steroids. About the other guys, I'm just making a point that players aren't clean just because someone likes them. Also, I'll take your word for Aaron.

QUOTE(AirScott @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 02:32 PM) they still give you more for less. one could take 'roids and just sit around and gain some muscle. No, that's really not how steroids work. I don't think you know what you're talking about. If you take steroids and sit around, you become a fat waste. If you take steroids and work out, you can work out long than you ever could, and your results are much better. I've done a lot of studying about steroids.

QUOTE(AirScott @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 02:28 PM) he took at least 1 pitch between swings, plus he's probably got more stamina than Sosa ever did. remember, if Sosa took steroids, he wouldn't have to work out as long to get the muscles, so he's all power, no stamina. Steroids give you the stamina to work out longer and get you better results from that exercise.

QUOTE(Middle Buffalo @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 02:24 PM) Don't be shy. I've had my doubts about Rowand since last year when he broke out. I also suspected Maggs while he was here, and I heard stories that kept me thinking. And Uribe comes to mind, but that could be skewed by his ridiculous tomahawk swing.

QUOTE(Middle Buffalo @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 02:19 PM) I was reading the Jennie Finch Sport's IIlustrated last night and it had an article called, "Tom Verducci's All-Bust Team." 1b KMillar "SLG shrunk from .474 to .385 and he's no longer hooking balls over or off the Green Monster." 4HR/12doubles 2b Bret Boone "Liker Millar, has lost pop in his bat." 6HR 3b MLowell "Lowell's slump is mystifyingly long and deep....A legit 25HR guy, he has jit only 3 and driven in 29." Add Sammy, Thome, etc. Anyone have any theories? There's a lot more guys you can add to that, including a few from our own team.

I'll say this one more time. It is believed by a lot of people that McGwire had one of the sweetest swings in baseball. The fact that someone has a sweet swing does not mean they haven't done steroids. Another guy with a great swing is Rafael Palmeiro. It's a little suspicious, though, that his homerun totals went up about 10-15 more a year when Jose Canseco was traded to the Rangers.

QUOTE(knightni @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 01:23 PM) Unbreakable was one where I got to the ending and I went... WTF?! That's just stupid! After the Sixth Sense, M. Night Shyamalan's movies got predictable in a way. His movies were built from the end backwards. Try to make an ending that will shock the viewers, no matter how bad or stupid it is. The Village looked good from the previews, but I just knew it would suck because he'd throw in some s***ty, half-assed "twist" ending. He did, I got what I expected, and I was still disappointed.

QUOTE(SHAFTR @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 01:02 PM) well, there is very little evidence against Abreu. His career has been consistent, no strange injuries. Steroids don't cause strange injuries. Unless you mean tumors and such, which are rare. Steroids actualy help a person recover quickly from injuries they sustain. Like I said before, I don't think many of us have been watching Abreu since he was in the minors. You wouldn't notice any change in size if he began there and continued. Canseco never went through a body change in the majors and that's because he began in the minors where nobody really paid as much attention. I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. Canseco stole a lot of bases, too. Steroids can make you faster. Once again, a lot of players have/had smooth swings. McGwire had a smooth swing, but pretty much everyone will agree that he did steroids. Let me reiterate, I'm not saying that Abreu did do steroids. I'm just saying he could have. The fact that you like a guy doesn't make him innocent.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 12:37 PM) I could buy that method. I just feel Iguchi is made to be a .280 hitter with 15-20 Hr's and good gap power. If he moves to a production spot I think you'll see that come out and at the same time the Sox will be sliding in a better version of Iguchi (the 2 hole hitter Iguchi) emerge in the 2 spot in Omar Vizquel (who flat out can handle a bat with the best of them). To me its basically allowing Iguchi to play more of his game down in the lineup while the Sox also upgrade to a little better 2 hole hitter in Omar (and its hard to do much better than Guchi has). As far as Huff goes, I wouldn't trade for him unless they want him at 1B or OF. No way should the Sox ruin what has helped them (ie a good defense). Just like if they trade a reliever they better be acquiring as good of one or a better one because the bullpen is also a large part to why the team is where it is at this point in the season. Would Vizquel be as unselfish as Iguchi has been? I know Omar is a great hitter and can do little things, but I don't know exactly how he is with going 0-1 by hitting behind the runner.

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 12:19 PM) Well In McGwire you have Canseco's book and he always admitted to using that one substance which was legal than but not anymore. I've read Canseco's book, and I actually believe some of what he has to say. But, you can hardly use him as a credible source. And unless you followed Canseco in the minor leagues, you wouldn't really see a difference in his body size because he began juicing in the minors. I'm just saying Abreu could be on them. They could be, and that's what I'm saying. I don't believe they are, but I'm sure someone could make a case for it. And don't turn this into me accusing Frank or Bo, because I know you want to have me say something stupid. I'm just saying that Abreu could be on them, and people are defending him because they like him.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 12:20 PM) imagine moving Guchi down to the 6th spot with Vizquel in the 2 hole. I don't know if I like that idea. Iguchi has been perfect in the 2 slot. If Vizquel comes in, he should be down in the order, possibly 9th to be able to have Vizquel, Pods, and Iguchi up in order.

QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 11:08 AM) I read your other posts in another thread on this topic and your McCarthy-like accusations are irresponsible and I know you wouldn't say these things to Mr. Abreu's face. I finished talking with you. Gee whiz, I didn't mean to get you all flustered. I hope big Mr. Abreu doesn't beat wittle old me up. Please don't tell him, I'm sure he'd get really bothered by it and come looking for me.

QUOTE(RibbieRubarb @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 11:35 AM) You could apply all of your logic to Frank Thomas and say he has been on the Juice too. Bobby, like Frank, is a big guy with a good swing. You could also use this logic for McGwire and Sosa. McGwire had a great swing and I have no proof he was on steroids.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 11:52 AM) First I am not reacting to one series. i have been pretty consistant on my feelings about this. Furthermore, the Cardinals were and are still currently a great team. Last years Cardinals were better than this years Whitesox. And we all know they went to the World series. This years Cardinals are better than this years Whitesox as it stands today. The record may not say so, but they are In my opinion. We are all entitled to our opinions and mine is get better players. That's everyone's argument. "You're just reacting to one game" "You wouldn't be saying that if we didn't lose the series" Guess what? Some of us have been wanting a trade for a long time.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 11:22 AM) This is very interesting it appears that many on this board think we can win this thing with the team we have. very interesting, I personally do not think we can. What happens when we lose 3 out of four to the indians, are all the same people going tostart clamoring for a trade? I have seen many Sox teams over decades, outside of 83 and 93 this is the best team I have seen from the sox. As proven in the past, teams like this do not come along very often, to sustain, our luck, our pitching our timely hitting and the mediorcre play of the Twins lately I believe we need to think bigger than the try hard happy go lucky guys we have. Talent will always eventually win over scrappiness. Get better talent, and yes for THIS year visquel would be great, he is proven, batting well, and fielding is equal to Uribe, not to mention he would be a good leader. Furthermore what makes everyone think El Duque is coming back and will not get injured again, or that Crede won't hurt his back, or that injury prone guys like Everett, or dye won't get injured again, or that teams won't figure out iguchi, from all they learned in the first half, or that Thomas won't stub his toe or twist his ankle. We need more. Don't think for a minute Minnesota or the Tribe will stand pat. I agree. The only thing that will piss me off more than not winning it all is not winning it all while having stood pat.