VAfan

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Sep 9, 2005 -> 02:31 PM) I was going to vote for that staff as the best in my lifetime. The 1964 team is all but forgotten. They finished one game behind the Yanks. There were no divisions or expanded playoffs back then. The Sox just couldn't handle the Yanks, losing the first 10 times they played them and 12 our of 18 overall. The starting rotation featured two hard throwing lefties, Gary Peters and Juan Pizarro. Joel Horlen, Ray Herbert and John Buzhardt gave additional strength. The bullpen was anchored by two knuckballers, Eddie Fisher and Hall of Famer Hoyt Wilhelm. For one year excellence no pitching staff can compare to the one in 1964 in my lifetime. Overall 1917 gets my vote. 1964 CWS Pitching Staff STARTERS W-L ERA SV L Gary Peters 20-8 2.50 0 L Juan Pizarro 19-9 2.56 0 R Joe Horlen 13-9 1.88 0 R John Buzhardt 10-8 2.98 0 R Ray Herbert 6-7 3.47 0 R Fred Talbot 4-5 3.70 0 BULLPEN R Hoyt Wilhelm 12-9 1.99 27 R Eddie Fisher 6-3 3.02 9 L Don Mossi 3-1 2.93 7 L Frank Baumann 0-3 6.19 1 L Frank Kreutzer 3-1 3.35 1 I also thought of the mid-60's Sox staffs that were sunk by having no offense. The phrase "Hitless Wonders" may or may not have been coined for those teams, but it certainly applied. Of course, these teams also pitched before they lowered the mound after Yastremski won the AL Triple Crown hitting below .300. So maybe the question should be - which is the best pitching staff on a Sox playoff team? On that score, I'd say the 1983 and 1993 teams starting rotations were as good, but their bullpens were weaker. But if this staff can win one or more playoff series, then they will immediately vault to the top of the heap in my book!

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Sep 9, 2005 -> 05:26 PM) slightly better defender? I dont think so. We've had this discussion, haven't we? Juan has the stronger arm, but I don't think his range is that great, and Vizquel never makes errors. But I'm also happy we have Juan, so don't nitpick.

Prior to the trade deadline, I thought we should swap Contreras and Uribe (and Brian Anderson) for Vizquel and Schmidt. Now I wouldn't even make that trade heads up. Contreras has obviously found something that he didn't have before in his current win streak. Unlike Brandon McCarthy, I don't think it's a new arm angle. But pitching 3 straight games without a walk is amazing for him, as is walking 5 guys and still shutting out KC for 7-2/3 innings. But what really caused me to write this post is Uribe's "leg-kick" transformation. Of course he's not going to keep this pace up, but here's what he's done since August 31, after he instituted his new leg kick. Aug. 31 @TEX L 9-2 3 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 .284 .361 .645 .242 Sep. 1 DET W 12-3 4 1 3 2 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 .289 .370 .659 .247 Sep. 2 DET W 9-1 2 2 1 0 0 1 3 2 0 0 0 .293 .379 .672 .248 Sep. 3 DET W 6-2 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .295 .380 .675 .251 Sep. 4 DET W 2-0 Did not play Sep. 5 @BOS W 5-3 4 2 3 1 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 .299 .393 .692 .256 Sep. 6 KC W 6-5 4 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 .299 .400 .699 .256 Sep. 7 KC W 1-0 2 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .301 .405 .706 .257 Sep. 8 KC L 4-2 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 .298 .401 .699 .254 Monthly Totals 24 6 11 3 1 3 8 2 1 0 0 .519 1.042 1.560 .458 With it, I hope we get a lot more of the guy who finished 2004 with a .506 slugging percentage and an .833 OPS. Since he's also younger and a slightly better defender than Vizquel, I'm happy the Sox have Juan. Now if only Aaron Rowand could find his 2004 bat......

Why does Ozzie insist on using Marte to ruin a perfectly pitched game?? This is plain bad managing. We all know Marte is the shakiest pitcher in our pen. Why doesn't Ozzie see it.

QUOTE(CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 7, 2005 -> 01:04 AM) This is being discussed in another thread started by me. And the title also misled me. With all due respect, "BMac blessing in disguise" is not a name for a thread that I would go to to discuss that BMac should go into the starting rotation and El Duque should go to the bullpen for the rest of the season. Change my title if you like, but respond to the subject.

QUOTE(White Sox Josh @ Sep 7, 2005 -> 12:42 AM) uh take a look at El Duque's record in the playoffs. It's outstanding. Im sorry, I love what Contreras has done all year to, however El Duque will be in the starting rotation for the playoffs. El Duque hasn't done squat in the playoffs in years. He's a shell of his former self. You want to start our worst pitcher?

That's what the Sox should do the rest of September after tonight. It gives the Sox a better look at McCarthy in advance of next year, and it both rests El Duque and gives him a chance to adapt to the bullpen where he's certainly going to go for the postseason the way Contreras has been pitching.

What I don't get is that Cotts appears to remain below Marte in Ozzie's eyes, since Marte usually pitches later in ballgames than Cotts. Yet Marte has issued 30 walks and given up 38 hits in around 43 innings. Somehow this hasn't cost us big time yet, but I'll pull my hair out if Ozzie has the same warped subsitution rotation in the postseason.

QUOTE(JimH @ Sep 5, 2005 -> 07:27 PM) Once again, you missed the "just in case" part. Not what actually happened. It was the absolute right decision if their motive was to have a 12th pitcher just in case, nor did it cost them a couple of games because your premise is based on an assumption that Gload would've delivered. I know of no crystal ball that assures a guy will hit. But I don't think you understand, so let's leave it alone. I understand perfectly, I just think it was a terrible decision. We played a whole lot of August with only 12 healthy position players, not the 14 who had helped us to baseball's best record. And for those of you defending Adkins, you do realize that he essentially blew two of the games in which he pitched. We had Vizcaino to fill that job, and he would have liked the work!!

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2005 -> 07:33 PM) Whatever happened...all I can think about is this... We have a kid that just took the best power hitting lineup and the best overall lineup in baseball and totally shut both of them down for 14 2/3 innings. 5 hits total, 0 runs. This kid will be making $400,000 or so next year. And if he can do this...he's got a shot at winning 15 or more. Salary flexibility...thy name is McCarthy. We'll have him around for years at a cheap price. In a few years, we may very well have a Buehrle, Garland, McCarthy, Gonzalez, etc. rotation. And no one in baseball will be hitting it. Whatever happened...thank God we didn't mortgage this kid for some free agent to be. I agree. See my "Don't Trade Brandon McCarthy" thread in the Trade Winds section.

Okay, even I didn't see back-to-back outings completely shutting down Texas in Texas (when they had creamed Buehrle, Garland, and El Duque) and then Boston in Boston. (Do you think any other pitcher on our roster could have done that?) Anyone still think we should have traded McCarthy?

QUOTE(JimH @ Sep 4, 2005 -> 04:11 PM) Yeah, I can ... for the 20th time, and I'll probably have to do it for the 21st time because you keep going back to numbers and splits and everything else that doesn't matter in this instance. Let me try this slowly ... They wanted a 12th pitcher JUST IN CASE it was necessary to have a guy eat some innings if one or more of the starters couldn't go deep into a game. But that lame idea evaporated the day they sent Gload down when Everett pulled his groin. Adkins didn't even "eat" any innings until his last game, after a month of losses when it was pretty clear from day 1 we needed an extra bat. Face it, it was the wrong decision, and it probably cost us a couple of games. Thankfully we had a 15 game lead at one point.

QUOTE(JimH @ Sep 2, 2005 -> 07:30 PM) 1. Guillen plays to win, not to play favorites. So far, 7 1/2 game lead in the division on Sept. 1 - could be better but could be one hell of a lot worse. So much for the conspiracy theory. 2. Seeing as they built the team around pitching, it made more sense to have an extra bullpen arm vs. a bat that would play sparingly. He did not know that Adkins wouldn't be needed due to the starters not experiencing a blowout. Better safe than sorry, keep those arms fresh for September. But this has been explained at least 10 times already. 3. Ozzie buried Gload? Hmmm ... Ozzie is the guy who gave Gload his first real big league chance last year. Sorry, this conspiracy theory of yours simply does not hold water. 4. Gload would have played every day in August and could have been the best hitter during that time? Ohhh-kay. Please forward those winning lottery numbers for next Saturdays Powerball drawing if you'd be so kind. 5. We agree that it's silly to spend so much time on Ross Gload. Those who believe in these off the wall conspiracy theories are spending that much time. By the way, I see nothing wrong with what Gload said, he wants to play like any other athlete. It's his career. My guess is, the clubhouse could care less. They know him and know what kind of guy he is already, and by any account I've heard he is a solid citizen in the clubhouse, not disruptive at all. Okay, if it is NOT bad managing (did I use the word "conspiracy"?), then what is the choice to play Timo Perez instead of Ross Gload?? These were Gload's lines in August when our offense sucked: 8/3, 2 for 4, HR 8/4, 2 for 4, HR, 3 runs, 2 RBI 8/5, 0 for 4 8/6, 1 for 4 8/7, 2 for 5 8/9, 0 for 3, run, RBI 8/10, 2 for 4, 2B, run 8/11, 2 for 4, run, RBI 8/12, 4 for 5, 3 2Bs, run, RBI 8/13, 2 for 3, HR, 2B, run, 2 RBI 8/14, 1 for 2 8/14, 1 for 2, 2B, run, RBI 8/15, 0 for 4 (in 1-0 loss, Charlotte held to 2 hits) 8/16, 2 for 4, 2B, 2 runs, RBI 8/17, 1 for 3 8/18, 0 for 3 (Charlotte held to 2 hits) 8/19, 3 for 5, HR, 4 runs, 5 RBI 8/20, 2 for 4, RBI 8/21, 1 for 3, 2B, run 8/22, 1 for 2, HR, run, RBI 8/22, 0 for 3 8/23, 2 for 3, 2 2B, RBI 8/24, 2 for 3, HR, 2B, run, 4 RBI 8/25, 2 for 4, 2B 8/26, 0 for 4 8/27, 2 for 4, 2B, run 8/28, 2 for 3, HR, 2 runs, RBI 8/29, 0 for 4 8/30, 2 for 4, 2B, run, 2 RBI 8/31, 0 for 4, 2 runs Totals: 45 for 108, 7 HRs, 14 2Bs, 24 runs, 24 RBI His average started at .356 and ended at .364. He had 16 multi-hit games. He never had 2 games in a row without a hit. Do you want Timo Perez's August splits? Here they are: 12 for 56, 0 HRs, 4 2Bs, 5 runs, 4 RBI. Meanwhile, this is what we got out of Jon Adkins instead: DATE GAME W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR BB SO AUG 02 TOR 0 0 0.00 1 0 0 0 0 0 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 AUG 13 @BOS 0 0 6.75 1 0 0 0 0 0 1.2 4 2 2 0 1 0 AUG 16 MIN 0 1 17.18 1 0 0 0 0 0 1.0 5 5 5 0 2 0 AUG 17 MIN 0 0 13.50 1 0 0 0 0 0 1.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 AUG 28 @SEA 0 0 8.64 1 0 0 0 0 0 3.2 3 1 1 0 1 1 August Total: 0 1 8.64 5 0 0 0 0 0 8.1 13 8 8 0 4 1 An 8.64 ERA. In 5 appearances, he helped us lose 2 games, and offered no value in 2 other games. His lone value game was his last, when he pitched 3.2 innings of mop up duty in a game we were routed. Now explain to me again why sending Gload down and bringing Adkins up was the right move. Can anyone explain this?

I was making a joke, but only Steff picked up on the green text. Still, after last night's game, Contreras has to figure in the postseason rotation, perhaps even among the first 3. Lately he's been really hot through the first 5 or 6 innings, which makes him a natural match for a good long reliever. El Duque should fill that role. Frankly, I could see the postseason rotation look a lot like it looked to start the season: Buehrle Garcia Contreras Garland If you love Garcia on the road more than at home, you could flip Contreras and Garcia.

The only thing I can figure about Gload's lack of playing time this year was that Ozzie plays favorites, and in the long run that is a LOT WORSE than a guy who has a legitimate gripe letting his emotions take over for a moment when a reporter thrusts a mike in his face. True, Gload's throwing shoulder was hurt, which prevented him from playing the outfield, but that is no excuse for sending him to AAA and keeping the useless Jon Adkins on the roster during what turned into the worst stretch of our season. The minute Harris and Gload went down and Adkins was brought up, Carl Everett went out with his groin strain. That was 5 games Gload could have DH'ed instead of Timo Perez, who essentially went hitless during those game. The next guy to go down was Podsednik. But he didn't go down until Everett had come back. Again, Gload could have DH'ed while Everett filled in for Pods in left field. Instead, we got more Timo Perez Ofers and 3.5 runs a game. While Gload torched AAA pitching with grand slams, hitting streaks, and overall solid left handed hitting. In the middle of that, Jermaine Dye had a very bad stretch where Everett could have moved to RF and let Gload play. Plus a day a week off for Konerko... So there was a stretch in August where Gload would have played every day and may have actually been the best hitter on the team for that short window of time. Instead, Ozzie burries the kid and plays, in the lead off position, the guy on the club with the worst on base percentage, all the while putting more stress on his pitching staff. (Plus Adkins blew up 2 of the 3 games he pitched in during this stretch.) Players see that and know it is not right, thereby undermining confidence in their manager. It seems silly to make this much out of Ross Gload, except when you realize it is really a comment on Ozzie Guillen's managing abilities, on which our success or failure in the postseason probably hinges.

1. Contreras 2. McCarthy 3. Garcia 4. Buehrle/Garland Of course I'm making a joke, but I do think Ozzie may have a challenge picking his postseason rotation, and our postseason fates probably rest on whether he makes the right choice. Needless to say, we also need to make the postseason, which is not yet a done deal. But when Ross Gload rejoins the team, I expect an immediate boost!

After Wednesday's performance against Texas, I just decided to revive this thread. Ozzie and Co. are already talking about a 6-man rotation for the rest of the season, and if McCarthy stays on the roll he's been on since fixing his arm angle, they may start considering him for a postseason role.

The best way to end our slide is to start winning the first game of all our upcoming series. That is what we did to start the year. Then, after the first game when the other team had blown their best pitcher on us, they were left facing bad pitching matchups. With our lead, we don't have to win every series, but we do have to avoid being swept by anyone again. And I'd still love for us to win 100 games. So let's get Santana tonight. He's beaten Buehrle twice, but Freddy is going to be tougher.

QUOTE(tonyho7476 @ Aug 23, 2005 -> 03:28 PM) don't the minor league seasons end at the end of August? Either way, I'm down with this move, big time. f*** Adkins. Get teh kid up here. BMac is the logical choice to spot start that game against Texas. But I wouldn't wait until then to send Adkins out. We could still use another hitter right now. Everyone knows who my choice would be.

QUOTE(JimH @ Aug 20, 2005 -> 10:39 PM) What a completely new and unique thought from you, thanks for starting another thread to point it out for the 20th time. And I'm going to keep raising it every time some other guy Gload could replace goes down for a few games. The 3-5 grand slam night at Charlotte by Gload is what triggered my latest outburst. Who would you rather see at bat? Timo Perez, Geoff Blum, or Ross Gload. Sure, Gload is not Ken Griffey, but his production in limited time last year was every bit as good as Lyle Overbay.

Between Everett's dings, Podsednik being out, and now Konerko, why in hell's name have the Sox had worthless Jon Adkins on the roster since the end of July. Ross Gload could have played most of the past 3 weeks and probably helped the club every day. Instead, he's tearing up AAA and we've lost 7 in a row because we have no offense. Sure, maybe Gload's a pathetic loser. But he's all we've got.

QUOTE(daa84 @ Aug 18, 2005 -> 09:14 PM) agreed. ibanez and young are both slightly worse versions of carl everett. ok carl doesnt hit righties as well, but historically hes much better against them. besides what are you gonna do send a bunch of prospects for a platoon DH??? maybe ibanez fills in for scottie for a while, but these games dont mean s***, lemme see what BA cando, we arent gonna lose the division, and we are almost guaranteed hoem field in the first series (tho that might be a bad thing). i just dont see either of these guys helping us too much. Think of Ibanez as a replacement for Timo Perez and suddenly he has more value. He'd replace Podsednik, who may be on the DL for a lot longer than 15 days, to start. After Pods returns, he could spell a lot of other players with a lefty bat. Dye, Konerko, Rowand, and even Everett could be given breaks without losing offense in the bargain.

It was posted under the Trade Winds section. Go there to see the discussion.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Aug 18, 2005 -> 06:50 PM) The Mariners would have no interest in Jerry Owens (a future 4th OF) being the focal point of any trade for Ibanez as a throw in yes. They'll want some one with more upside and higher ranked. You may be right, but you are guessing as much as I am. Personally, I would be willing to give them Brian Anderson, and I started to write that, but I doubt he would clear waivers. Joe Borchard would be another possibility, and might clear waivers because he's older than Anderson.

Guardado has a player option next year at $4.5 million. The Mariner's option is $7 million. They won't exercise that option, so they can't demand much in trade for a month of his services. This last year, Eddie exercised his side of the option, but I'm guessing he'll opt out and try to negotiate a new longer term deal this offseason. So, personally I thinking adding Eddie would be fantastic. No more Damaso Marte roulette in the late innings and protection for Hermy's back. But I wouldn't pay more than non-roster guys for him. And no Chris Young. If the deal is too pricey, I'm also fine with what we currently have in the bullpen.