Quin Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 How about this: GarPax have drafted an MVP, a ROY (and a runner up), a DPOY, a sixth man of the year (and a runner up), four All-Stars, multiple All-NBA defensive players, and signed an All-NBA 1st Team center. Other than the Spurs, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better drafting team with the only blunders being Teague over Draymond and Snell. They've cleared space and tried to sign big tier free agents multiple times. But the Heatles happened and Melo decided money was better than winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:26 PM) Ryan Pace knows what he is doing. He's done a good job changing the roster and culture. Hired a good coach as well. Bears are on the up and up. That is great, only two of them have actually built perennial winners / contenders. Paxson & Bowman. Period. End of Story. Cubs are sexy and 5 years from now they might have won their championship and be consistently contending and passing up one or both of the Bulls / Hawks, but until that has happened, they do not get that credit. And Ryan Pace, lol. I love what the dude has done but they aren't contenders today and he hasn't proven jack s*** about being able to build a contender (I like him, don't get me wrong, but Paxson has built a core of Curry / Hinrich / Deng / Gordon / Ben Wallace and than a core around Noah / Rose / Deng and than a core around Noah / Pau / Butler / Rose and well we'll see where next, but there have been a variety of cores, some which contended better than others, but all which were consistent winners (and during that time he's also been able to take shots at superstars..yes he has failed, but so did everyone else). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:34 PM) How about this: GarPax have drafted an MVP, a ROY (and a runner up), a DPOY, a sixth man of the year (and a runner up), four All-Stars, multiple All-NBA defensive players, and signed an All-NBA 1st Team center. Other than the Spurs, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better drafting team with the only blunders being Teague over Draymond and Snell. They've cleared space and tried to sign big tier free agents multiple times. But the Heatles happened and Melo decided money was better than winning. People like to call Snell a bust, but he's more serviceable than most guys picked where he was picked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzfest Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:31 PM) I just want to point out that outside of the Warriors, they have beaten all those teams on that list. The Bulls also have the highest winning percentage in the eastern conference vs. teams above .500 and the 2nd most wins vs. teams above .500 in the NBA (tied with the Spurs...whose winning percentage is significantly higher). Bulls winning percentage vs. .500 or better teams is 3rd in the NBA. Regular season record doesn't matter. Even according to the front office. They fired Thibs, not because of his regular season record, but because they were "worn out" by the time the playoffs came around. If you are going to convince yourself the this Bulls team is a contender go ahead though. Last time I checked a contender doesn't go double OT with the sixers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzfest Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:35 PM) That is great, only two of them have actually built perennial winners / contenders. Paxson & Bowman. Period. End of Story. Cubs are sexy and 5 years from now they might have won their championship and be consistently contending and passing up one or both of the Bulls / Hawks, but until that has happened, they do not get that credit. And Ryan Pace, lol. I love what the dude has done but they aren't contenders today and he hasn't proven jack s*** about being able to build a contender (I like him, don't get me wrong, but Paxson has built a core of Curry / Hinrich / Deng / Gordon / Ben Wallace and than a core around Noah / Rose / Deng and than a core around Noah / Pau / Butler / Rose and well we'll see where next, but there have been a variety of cores, some which contended better than others, but all which were consistent winners (and during that time he's also been able to take shots at superstars..yes he has failed, but so did everyone else). I can see you are a gar pax believer. Using the word "core" and "hinrich" in the same sentence. Gross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:38 PM) Regular season record doesn't matter. Even according to the front office. They fired Thibs, not because of his regular season record, but because they were "worn out" by the time the playoffs came around. If you are going to convince yourself the this Bulls team is a contender go ahead though. Last time I checked a contender doesn't go double OT with the sixers. Last I looked the best team on the planet doesn't lose to the Bucks either (and when they lost to the Bucks ,they were I think one of the 5 worst teams in the NBA) oh wait, they did. And wasn't that a Bulls team playing without Pau & Rose (yes still pathetic, but whatever). This Bulls team is widely considered the 2nd / 3rd best team in the east...that makes them a contender in my book and they have consistently been in that position for a long time. Bottom line...this team has beaten all of the contenders. Not saying they'd be the favorites in a 5 game series, but I still believe that there are only 3 teams who would be material favorites over the Bulls in a 7 game set (Spurs / Warriors / Cavs). Outside of that, I think you have another few teams that are relatively on par with the Bulls (with those teams primarily being western conference foes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:38 PM) Regular season record doesn't matter. Even according to the front office. They fired Thibs, not because of his regular season record, but because they were "worn out" by the time the playoffs came around. If you are going to convince yourself the this Bulls team is a contender go ahead though. Last time I checked a contender doesn't go double OT with the sixers. The 72 win Bulls lost to an expansion team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzfest Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:34 PM) How about this: GarPax have drafted an MVP, a ROY (and a runner up), a DPOY, a sixth man of the year (and a runner up), four All-Stars, multiple All-NBA defensive players, and signed an All-NBA 1st Team center. Other than the Spurs, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better drafting team with the only blunders being Teague over Draymond and Snell. They've cleared space and tried to sign big tier free agents multiple times. But the Heatles happened and Melo decided money was better than winning. The Bulls didn't clear the decks for Melo. They gave him a 2 year deal. An insulting offer. And a big risk for Melo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (Boogua @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:33 PM) Yeah, considering draft position guys like Gibson, Asik, and (while still in the air) Mirotic were very, very good picks. Once you include draft position into the equation, the Bulls are miracle workers in the draft and development department. They have out done teams drafting in the lottery on a consistent basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:34 PM) They don't give a S*** about public appearance? Gar Forman ran down from his suite, and publicly berated Jeff Van Gundy during a Bulls game because he was making fun of management. http://nypost.com/2015/02/27/why-you-wont-...-bulls-anymore/ That is exactly what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:40 PM) I can see you are a gar pax believer. Using the word "core" and "hinrich" in the same sentence. Gross. Yes, cause Kirk Hinrich was not an extremely valuable point guard during his first run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:41 PM) The Bulls didn't clear the decks for Melo. They gave him a 2 year deal. An insulting offer. And a big risk for Melo. It was one of the offers they floated towards him, similar to LeBron's deal. It has never been stated that it was the only deal offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:34 PM) How about this: GarPax have drafted an MVP, a ROY (and a runner up), a DPOY, a sixth man of the year (and a runner up), four All-Stars, multiple All-NBA defensive players, and signed an All-NBA 1st Team center. Other than the Spurs, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better drafting team with the only blunders being Teague over Draymond and Snell. They've cleared space and tried to sign big tier free agents multiple times. But the Heatles happened and Melo decided money was better than winning. You can nitpick misses with any team. The better the team, the harder it is to draft because you are picking from a worse pool of players. You can go back and look at even the Spurs and pick out plenty of busts. But when you draft low each year, that burden is much harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzfest Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 Questions for all you GarPax supporters: 1) How many coaches does Pax get to hire? 2) How many rebuilds do you give these guys? 3) An NBA FO has three responsibilities A) Drafting B) Free Agency C) Creativity in making your team better; has Gar Pax satisfied 2 of 3? 4) According to GarPax, this roster was championship ready with Thibs standing in the way, so now, since Thibs is gone, are the Bulls winning a title anytime soon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:44 PM) It was one of the offers they floated towards him, similar to LeBron's deal. It has never been stated that it was the only deal offered. The story at the time of the negotiations was that the Bulls basically put a set of offers together which basically said in order for us to offer you this type of contract, this is the players/salary we'd have to move to do it. You tell us what contact and players you want on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:49 PM) 3) An NBA FO has three responsibilities A) Drafting B) Free Agency C) Creativity in making your team better; has Gar Pax satisfied 2 of 3? A) They've got an A+: Fantastic drafters, arguably the best. B) They've got a B+: They've signed Brewer, Korver, Boozer (who was good for the first two years), Robinson, Augustin, Bellinelli, Gasol, Dunleavy, etc. All of those signings worked out to some degree. C) James Johnson became Niko Mirotic. Tyrus Thomas became Doug McDermott who looks like he can be a solid role-player. They don't get creative in player-for-player trades or in-season deals, but they are plenty creative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:49 PM) Questions for all you GarPax supporters: 1) How many coaches does Pax get to hire? 2) How many rebuilds do you give these guys? 3) An NBA FO has three responsibilities A) Drafting B) Free Agency C) Creativity in making your team better; has Gar Pax satisfied 2 of 3? 4) According to GarPax, this roster was championship ready with Thibs standing in the way, so now, since Thibs is gone, are the Bulls winning a title anytime soon? I wouldn't exactly call myself a supporter, but I am not willing to go to the rabbit hole of trying to grossly oversimplify things. I don't feel like there is an automatic number that disqualifies someone from their job. If the front office was fired tomorrow, I wouldn't be upset about it, but I am not to the point where it HAS to be done either. To spin it back around, If Tim Duncan at his absolute peak sustained a series of devastating injuries, would the Spurs look like geniuses? The Golden St team is only 4 years removed from being a 23 win lottery team. From 1994-1995 to 2011-2012 they made the playoffs once. That is one time in almost 2 full decades. The Bulls have missed the playoffs ONCE in the last decade. Is that really that impressive that after 20 years, they finally did something right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Your letter c) is extremely weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 Case in point of a weakness of Garpax - Mirotic was likely much more valuable as a trade asset than a player. He's not good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzfest Posted January 20, 2016 Author Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 04:06 PM) A) They've got an A+: Fantastic drafters, arguably the best. B) They've got a B+: They've signed Brewer, Korver, Boozer (who was good for the first two years), Robinson, Augustin, Bellinelli, Gasol, Dunleavy, etc. All of those signings worked out to some degree. C) James Johnson became Niko Mirotic. Tyrus Thomas became Doug McDermott who looks like he can be a solid role-player. They don't get creative in player-for-player trades or in-season deals, but they are plenty creative. *Lamarcus Aldridge turned into Doug McDermott. Skipped that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (bmags @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:25 PM) Maybe, but that said I hate the argument that essentially says the bulls could never have done anything differently (what more could they have done for a FA, the other teams had better offers for a trade). While, fine, in 10 they lost out on the FAs fair and square when they set themselves up fine, but in 14 they tried to convince Melo to take half the money. That's not serious. Also, they are responsible for the talent/assets on roster. They have had a preference for older established vets on roster over younger, higher upside players (miami has whiteside, the bulls have kirk hinrich!). They traded 2 firsts for Doug McDermott. They missed out on Green for Teague. They are above average, and had tragic luck. The Warriors would not win a title if Steph Curry blows out his knee and Draymond green fights plantar fascitis. But comparable teams and situations (Spurs, Heat, Warriors, Rockets) have seen them draft, sign and trade much more effectively to get them over the hump. The Bulls sign a Boozer and Gasol. That said, nobody could have ever experienced the injuries bulls had and won a championship. Fair assessment. My issue is, if the FO got a pass for that, then the coaching staff should've as well. And instead of constantly fighting with their coaches, they should be helping them and enabling them. You think Jimmy is gonna run laps for Thibs if he knows the FO wants Tom gone no matter what? Hell no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:29 PM) OK at drafting? You can't seriously look at this team, and call them OK. They have drafted and developed MULTIPLE All-stars in the sport that is the single hardest sport to get an all-star in. Even past Rose, you are neglecting Deng, Noah, and Butler. The Bulls aren't horrible at trades, they just don't make many trades. They are scared. Those are two different things. The Bulls suck at getting Grade A free agents, but have done amazing things at plucking players who are either no names, or fallen out of favor for some reason, and turning them into useful parts. The front office definitely doesn't give a s*** about public appearance, and I do get the feeling that they think coaching is not important. Deng, Noah, and Butler were not all stars before thibs. Only Butler will be after Thibs. Thibs got everything he could out of this team - the job of the coach, but was fired. The Bulls have put a flawed roster out there, and didn't do everything they could to win. Yet they're still here. Again its been 13 years. If you don't want to fire them now, you never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 03:34 PM) How about this: GarPax have drafted an MVP, a ROY (and a runner up), a DPOY, a sixth man of the year (and a runner up), four All-Stars, multiple All-NBA defensive players, and signed an All-NBA 1st Team center. Other than the Spurs, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better drafting team with the only blunders being Teague over Draymond and Snell. They've cleared space and tried to sign big tier free agents multiple times. But the Heatles happened and Melo decided money was better than winning. The FO lucked into Rose. No one can dispute that. So take away his awards to be honest. As far as the other awards, you've named multiple ones for the same players. And again, none of those players were as good if not better before or after thibs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panerista Posted January 20, 2016 Share Posted January 20, 2016 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 05:36 PM) Deng, Noah, and Butler were not all stars before thibs. Only Butler will be after Thibs. Thibs got everything he could out of this team - the job of the coach, but was fired. The Bulls have put a flawed roster out there, and didn't do everything they could to win. Yet they're still here. Again its been 13 years. If you don't want to fire them now, you never will. The bold is completely false. Nothing prevents me from changing my mind. Currently, I'm not sure what the better option is. What shall they do? And don't overvalue Thibodeau. He was a defensive tactician, but his teams played baby offense and he wasn't a locker room manager in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 21, 2016 Share Posted January 21, 2016 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 05:40 PM) The FO lucked into Rose. No one can dispute that. So take away his awards to be honest. As far as the other awards, you've named multiple ones for the same players. And again, none of those players were as good if not better before or after thibs. Beasley v. Rose was hotly contested. Just like Oden v. Durant was. There was luck, but they still had a call to make. Ok, let's list the non-Rose players. Ben Gordon Luol Deng Kirk Hinrich Joakim Noah Taj Gibson Jimmy Butler Niko Mirotic Pau Gasol You don't just accidentally acquire that much talent. QUOTE (AustinIllini @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 05:52 PM) The bold is completely false. Nothing prevents me from changing my mind. Currently, I'm not sure what the better option is. What shall they do? And don't overvalue Thibodeau. He was a defensive tactician, but his teams played baby offense and he wasn't a locker room manager in the slightest. And Thibs refused to hire an offensive assistant and Jimmy Butler was among 3 starters that wanted Thibs gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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