wrathofhahn

Looks like the Phillies maybe making the same mistake with Harper. http://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/26075507/phillies-set-hard-deadline-bryce-harper Allowing their offer to sit around not setting a hard deadline when Harper has no other real 300 million offers.

You won't be able to trade him at this point rosters are pretty much already set. If anything I'd look to acquire Martinez.

I'm not going to play around with a bunch of straw mans. The last three years Machado is 13th in league in combined WAR. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2018&month=0&season1=2016&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=21,d And in case I wasn't clear in my other post I am not saying Machado isn;t an allstar. He's certainly better then Harper because he at least profiles to continue to play the field moving forward but he just got paid 300 million a record breaking deal. It's hard to do that unless you are Arod. Or someone like Trout if he was allowed to hit FA. It's hard to do that for a player who averages 4-5 WAR most seasons. Who has a average BR of 4.8. 5.2 per 650 PA games BR. Arod before he hit FA averaged 7.1 WAR per 650 PA. I don't think it's sort of unreasonable if you are going to pay someone a record breaking deal and make them the highest paid ever they be the best player in baseball or at least in that conversation consistently. Machado isn't. He may in a good year. As fans noone really cares about budgets and whatever but still I saw people say offer him 400. Offer both Machado and Harper 400 million. I'd ask why? Where is this urge necessary to lock these guys up on a 10 year deal? The market trends do not indicate there being huge salary increases in the coming years. So what if Machado is 26? This team won't compete for at least two years anyways. There won't be a 28-29 year guy in 2021 that is available? As far Baines goes first of all it's a different era in 1980 when Baines entered the league and he played until his 40's. Machado is what 26 lets see him get to 30 first and if he does get to 40 then you can compare their career numbers.

Neither of these guys are HOF'ers. Machado has a career OPS in the low 800s. He's an allstar caliber player but you guys act like we missed on a transformative like Trout or Arod. We didn't. There was a time when I would have said go out and sign the 5 WAR guy who may have the potential to give you 7 WAR in a good year for big money but in todays market that isn't where the value is. The value right now is with the veterans due to a combination of a bunch of things. The point is I'm confident there will be somebody worth signing when we are ready to be competitive whether that is a huge splash guy like Harper or Machado or more of a bunch of 3-4 WAR veterans to fill holes. When you have guys like Grandal and Moose being forced to settle for one year deals. When you have Pollock signing for 60 million. Why would you even want to tie up Machado or Harper in a record breaking contract? Where is the upside when salaries are at best flat right now?

100 percent people are acting like this is the end of days for the White Sox. There will be other free agents. We weren't ready to contend anyways.

I'm glad we were never really in on Harper. He'll get a 10 year deal and be a DH in a couple of years no thanks.

I mean you've bought a house or made a huge purchase where you've negotiated right? I mean I just sold some property where the offer was literally good for a week. I negotiated another sale where we went back and forth on prices three times. That is normal but at some point we should have told them it was take or leave it and our final offer. That should have been communicated clearly. The problem is it wasn't and Machado never thought we were going to move on or pivot to other players and neither did the rest of us. So why would there be any urgency on his end? According to reports his agent was shopping around our offer and waiting for another team to beat it for MONTHS. Maybe he would have said thanks but no thanks anyways and would have sucked for those who wanted him here but honestly while noone knows how it would have played out I tend to believe he would have been a whitesox we were at the time really his only suitor and the Phillies were focused on Harper. I've always said the FA market in baseball is all about timing. There are offers that appear and evaporate as teams move on all the time.

Well you can watch how Machado plays now that he's gotten paid.

The fact we are where we are sucks but Machado doesn't change much. I don't understand the collective freak out. So what if we lose 95 games instead of 90. The orioles were one of the worst teams in baseball with him on the roster and this roster is worse everyone is looking for that one guy who is going to change this team around. That isn't how baseball works. We could have signed both Harper plus Machado and still would have likely missed the playoffs.

If Prelller didn;t come in at the last second there is a very good chance he would have been a white sox. The issue is we put zero pressure on Machado to sign and kept the franchise in a holding pattern while we allowed Dan to shop around our offer. We should have set a hard deadline and moved on. if they wanted to continue to wait then that is their prerogative but the reporting was is they had our offer in hand and was waiting for some team to beat it. We should have never allowed that.

Yes. Yes. Yes. We treated Machado like the decision when he doesn't have near that kind of impact. We did a great job of pumping up his ego at the expense of the franchise.

Jay and Alonso were only brought in to lure Machado. They are legit crap And 2WAR veterans that are bounceback candidates to become 4-5 WAR guys are not crap. We saw last year with Soria that kind of move can payoff.

Well a bunch of veterans signed one year deals which could be moved later as rentals. Dozier. Moose. Grandal. Donaldson. You have veteran pitchers like Garrett Richards. Matt Harvey. Who signed short term deals. Market is very bare now. It's a misnomer to think just because we are rebuilding we have to play a bunch of 4A guys. You can sign competent veterans who are bounceback candidates to 1yr deals or short term contracts. And beyond just the options out there it's a terrible negotiating tactic. It's also flat out embarrassing as a fan you guys are angry I'm more embarrassed for the organization then anything have some pride Hahn/KW if Dan didn't accept what you consider a legit offer move on

Well until Feb we had the highest offer. I don't know why we kept it on the table forever hoping to get choosen. If it was never going to be good enough figure that out early and move on to other options. Now we've wasted practically the entire offseason on machado.

If that was the plan I would be fine with it but my gut tells me they would have moved a bunch of guys in the minors to try and win now. In any case Machado is obviously talented but there will be other opportunities in the coming years to add premium talent. Our main focus should be like the Astros lets have a team first then worry about how to add to it.

This entire off-season has reeked of desperation. Desperate teams do dumb things.

I think the biggest mistake was letting our offer just hang out there for months. We should have told Dan at some point it was take it or leave it. The SD waited until Feb to get involved and wrapped up a deal quickly. We should have made our offer and moved on.

Agreed. I'm just not as upset as others because I look at the roster and see 90-95 losses. Machado won't make or break this roster. It's more of a missed opportunity for Hahn and KW to build some equity with the fanbase but after Moncada, Gio, Kopech and some of the other more recent setbacks in the minors including Hansen I think we should still be looking to stripping this roster further for longterm assets. In two years when all the kids are up that is the times to asses needs and start signing guys. This has always been my perspective. My worry with Machado is as soon as you bring him in you can talk about continuing to be patient but we all know what will happen. I just don't see a path with what we currently have that would have led to anything sustainable.

For months the white sox offer sat out there. Did the white sox make a mistake by not walking away sooner and forcing a decision? To me that seemed sort of the biggest misstep of all.

We don't have a rebuilt core. When we do it's the time to acquire talent not before. What concerns me more about this entire fiasco isn't that we didn't get Machado it's that we wanted him in the first place considering where we are in the process and the set backs of Moncada and Kopech.

I'm glad this happened we can finally move on and do a rebuild the proper way. Machado was never going to be enough and just going to lead to more shortsighted moves. Hopefully, Harper is a no too.

Oh my lord do ever stop being so sanctimonious? This thread was created because certain mods/admin recognize there is a problem. I just want to point out other then a couple of posters who are derailing things there isn't a problem as far as I can see. You can take that opinion for what it is worth which according to you isn;t much. We also all have real life responsibilities and jobs outside of posting on soxtalk though I am sure mine isn't as world altering as yours. I was just trying to be honest of what I saw the problem as which is mod enforcement and I think I'll your advice to take a break from the board a bit.

It's not based on AAV it's based on real dollars I am pretty sure of reading somewhere that is how it is done.

Right now I'm not sure Boras in a position to use anyone as a pawn vis via Harper. If Machado signs with the Phillies we are really the only other obvious suitor left. As far as to what qualifies as a stupid offer. Well the Yankees have been sourced repeatedly of not wanting to do a record breaking deal or go to 300 million. We have said we don't want to do a record breaking deal. Well the record is 13/325. The Stanton trade at the time was for 10/295. Harper Nationals offer was 10/284. At this time the Yankees are rumored to not what to go more then 8 years on Machado. So through rumors we all have a pretty good idea of that the market is for both players. If the Phillies sign him for 400 million or even 350 million they overpaid significantly based on what the market is. There are basically only three spots for two players and the Yankees would be out if they lose Machado. We should continue to be patient.

I remember when I went to this board to talk baseball now all people do is post garbage rumors and attack each other. There should be some sort of rule as well where people are not allowed to post unsourced bullshit as if it were fact or post some garbage from someone with 20 twitter followers. You can blame posters if you want but this isn't a poster problem it's a mod problem. Half the garbage that has been posted lately should have been deleted or never allowed in the first place.