WestEddy

Looks like it's that famous dead arm period we hear about every spring.

I know it's easy to reflexively complain about player development during Getz's tenure (2017-2020), but putting fact to the assertion: 2017 - Burger, Sheets, Gonzalez Burger was developed to a starting MLB 3B. I'd call that a success. Sheets is a major leaguer, playing out of position. His hitting has regressed since his debut. Luis Gonzalez got 11 PA's with the 2021 White Sox, and Hahn tried sneaking him through waivers the next year. The Giants grabbed him up and started him for a few months. While it may not be the case that Sheets can be considered "developed", he has had success in the bigs. 2018 - Madrigal, Steele Walker, Pilkington Madrigal was rushed by the GM, then traded for Craig Kimbrel. While Madrigal hasn't set the league on fire, he is still top 5 in bWAR for that year's first round, and has out-produced the 3 players picked in front of him. Walker was sent to Texas for Nomar Mazara, and Pilkington was sent to Cleveland for Cesar Hernandez during the 2021 pennant push. Developing players to the level that other teams want to trade for them is one method of obtaining MLB players. 2019 - Vaughn, Thompson, Dahlquist Jury's still out on Vaughn. He was rushed, then played out of position for a couple of years. That was the GM's decision, not Getz's. Matt Thompson was brought to AA, and is considered by many, here, to be a grave loss for this organization, thanks to Getz's personal development of this player. Dahlquist has never really progressed. 2020 - Crochet, Kelly, Coffey Garret Crochet is our opening day starter. I'm not sure what else you could say about this development success. Kelly and Coffey are both notable bullpen prospects. Coffey having looked good in the AFL, and Kelly moving up to AA. 2021 - Monty, Kath, Burke Colson Montgomery is a top 20 in the game prospect. Having been overlooked in the draft, Monty's development is one of this organization's best success stories. Wes Kath hasn't caught on at any level. Sean Burke has pitched his way up to AAA by the end of his 2nd pro season before getting injured. He is also a success story. 2022 - Schultz, Pallette, Cannon Noah Schultz is a consensus top 100 prospect who is being brought along slowly. Pallette came back from injury, and Cannon will most probably pitch at AAA in his 3rd pro season. Out of these 6 drafts that cover the entirety of Getz's time as director of player development, I would say only 2 of the 18 have been development failures. The others you might cite as not hitting their ceilings with the Sox were either traded, or rushed by the previous regime. Burger, Madrigal, Vaughn and Crochet are contributing major leaguers. Thompson, Kelly, Coffey, Montgomery, Burke, Schultz, Pallette and Cannon are well-regarded prospects.

Sure. Who knows what the exact dynamic was last July? Did Hahn/KW know they were leaving, hedged on moving Cease, so they asked for the moon and stars? Did JR not give the go ahead for the benefit of Getz? I've seen a few people suggest that the economic dynamic in the game now forces GMs to hold onto their clear franchise prospects, as they'll get 3-4 cheap years from premium production.

What 2023 says, but also - nobody seems to be trading their top ten in the game prospects. Trading for the #5 top prospect means you're buying at the top of that guy's market. Think Kopech and Moncada. I think the market is shifting to targeting just missed and end of the top 100 guys who will be ascending with a bullet once real games start being played.

2024 is the large link top-center. I posted that link right above the bp.com one.

Hey, if you get to pretend that solid defensive players can't play defense adequately, I get to pretend that Texas' GM got them into a bad TV deal.

Got there through Cots on bp. https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/american-league/chicago-white-sox/

Looks something like $117.5 million. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1C4dU46AiC_pt1GtzakmASUg9UD_UnpG32kdRZ3clOnk/edit#gid=1520401900

Filtering for 200 PAs, Nicky Lopez ranked 6th among 2B on Fangraphs for 2023 defense. DeJong ranked 8th for shortstops. So, pretend all you want that these guys are washed up and can't pick it, that's just factually untrue. Getz replaced negative production with positive production at SS and 2B. RF couldn't get worse than it was last year, and the same with C. There was probably a guy or two who hit a little better and fielded a little worse than what they're getting, but he chose these guys' profiles based on character, etc. Everybody can make up a dream list of free agents they could sign. Who says those guys would play for the Sox this year?

I'd think a guy in his 30's who has already made $30 million in his career might want to take the certainty of being on one good team all season.

This off-season looks nothing like anything Hahn has done. Dude's laid out a clear plan, and he's followed it. The guys you're singling out have a higher ceiling than you're letting on.

And that's a thing I keep coming back to. You're bidding along side the Yankees and the World Champion Rangers. 3 offers on the table for $4.5 million. Where is Lorenzen going? How much more do the White Sox have to offer this guy to pick a 1-12 record, a manager on the hot seat, almost certain last place, and a roulette wheel spin of where he's going to wind up in 4 months?

Let's start here: Smart GM's don't have TV deals go south and blow up their entire payroll budgets.

This is silly. The only signing out of that group I question is Maldonado. Fedde will be a solid contributor as a discount. If Nicky Two-Eighty can put up 1.5 WAR at 2B, that's a major win. Pillar and DeJong are solid placeholders. None of them broke the bank, nor precluded the Sox from taking on Lorenzen.

Who did Getz sign that would have precluded them signing Lorenzen? Supposedly, they checked in on him last week. He was either still too expensive, or wanted to go to a contender. And, are you actually suggesting Getz should have just waited until the very last week of spring training to start building a team? I really don't think "smart GM's" were anticipating how this market was going to shake out. I could see you being angry that the Sox didn't pick Lorenzen up at this price. They signed Fedde on the 13th, and Flexen on the 30th of December. Neither of those felt like, "jumping the gun", and seeing what's left on the market, were prudent to get any bodies they wanted to work with.

I think the key was to sign early.

This seems a little giddy for what's starting to look like a serious collusion off-season.

Etched in my heart.

The Bummer trade is looking like an unmitigated steal. Soroka and Nicky Two-Eighty, alone, make it a pure heist. Riley Gowens could make it insane if he develops.

Were they asking for all of them at once? Just like with the Orioles, they probably weren't asking for Kjerstadt, Cowser, Holliday, and Westburg in the same package, while it would be accurate to say they asked for those 4 guys.

Again, I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore. Rodon did get extra days' rest between is first 7 starts. He was still pitching strong in September. I don't think you really understand how organizations treat injuries, and you just argue that whatever the White Sox did was wrong. Because reasons. The manager manages the game with advisement from his coaches. On a higher level, I don't believe Grifol is making long-term decisions on pitcher development, or rehab. I would think Getz makes those calls, with heavy advisement from Katz and Bannister. Go ahead and argue with that, now.

The no-hitter against Cleveland. 114 pitches. https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA202104140.shtml Game time temp was 45 degrees.

Your argument that Katz ruined Rodon by not overruling Tony LaRussa and demanding that Rodon not finish his no-hit bid is silly. 4 days of rest is normal for a 5-man rotation. Every single one of Rodon's #2-7 starts were thrown on extra rest (5-8 days rest between starts). Perhaps you think Rodon should have had years and years to recover from that 114 pitch game. I'm not even sure what you're arguing, at this point. Looks like Rodon was ramped up responsibly after his TJS. When was Rodon exhausted? By reading your comments? Rodon was throwing 60+ game score games in September of 2021. The Yankees and Dodgers, organizations that certainly have reputations of being successful with pitchers, have more pitchers on the IL than the White Sox do. Sounds like you're saying that Katz is the one of the best pitching coaches in baseball.

Every day on MLB trade rumors, there's another story about a pitcher going down with arm problems. It seems like that's kind of a risk of pitching. Or maybe 30 organizations are abusing pitchers by making them throw baseballs hard. Pitchers pitch. If they're healthy, they throw 90-100 pitches a game. Weird how, in 2022, Rodon went to SF, in a system overseen by Brian Bannister, threw 90+ pitches in his first 6 games, and didn't break down. Some of those were with only 4 (gasp!) days rest. Look at his 2022 game logs. Pretend he was pitching on the White Sox that year. Pretend he got hurt like he pretty much did every single year on the White Sox. Now make up an argument about how he was misused. See how fun this game can be? Seriously, I don't care who you think has credibility or not. You think that a pitcher should take years and years and years to come back from injury, or turn from reliever to starter. I'll stick with listening to the guys who are getting paid to oversee pitching for major league teams, and not an internet guy who complains about every single development.