WestEddy

Do you really know of any credible prospect analysis outfits that look at minor league win-loss records? I agree that fans who don't really pay attention scoff at a system based on W-L's. Normal systems are regularly moving guys around, on and off rosters, so the teams aren't really indicative of anything. I'd agree that better players win more games, but when you have situations like Noah Schultz, where a team is stretching him out and fine-tuning his approach and arsenal, his results might influence outside rankings, but the team has a path, and they're not pursuing W-L's, ERA or anything beyond specific, targeted stats. An organization like the Sox might now be zeroing in on wins for Birmingham and Winston-Salem, as they'll want their guys to experience the urgency of a "pennant race", and they get an extra week or so of competitive games.

And away we goooooooo Yes, perhaps his hot streak will be one to remember. But "getting better upon leaving" doesn't equal a hot streak.

Vaughn could bottom out and wind up with negative WAR in Milwaukee, but for the next 5 years, he will be on the list of players who left and got better. And when it's pointed out he didn't, the same half a dozen people will clown that fact for pages, because reasons.

I'm not even sure where you're going here. I'm sorry I don't feel the deep shame you want me to for the lack of accomplishment from people who aren't me? Again, you're really spoiled for choice here for people to share your weird obsession over Chris Getz with.

Now do the 7-23 start. Compare and contrast. Show your work.

No, it's pretty demonstrable that he changed here before he left. How did he shake off a call? Like, are they supposed to bench him? They finally took him out of the closer's spot but still used him in leverage situations. I just find it amazing that a small bunch of people can't accept that Kopech may have finally taken advice and applied it before he left. Calling the White Sox the better organization is a bit much, but if that's what you think, then good on you.

What are you talking about? Yeah, nobody thought the 10-4 record coming out of the All-Star break was indicative of anything, so congrats? They're playing about a .430 rate in the 30 games since the All-Star break and are around a .400 record since May 1st. Are you actually claiming that the 7-23 Vaughn/Amaya/Jankowski/Maton team was as good or intense as the current version? They sure seem to be scoring a lot more runs now than in April. The bullpen has been bottom half of the middle third most of the way, I believe, which isn't great, but we were right next to the Dodgers in the last couple of lists people posted. I'd imagine that all of Smith, Martin, Burke and Cannon will be in the mix for next year's OD. I don't care how many games they lose during the rebuild. You could keep commenting that at me all you want, and it doesn't mean anything. You don't seem to grasp that teams go through hot and cold streaks, and neither are true indicators of talent level. That's a fact.

Oh sure, I agree. That hot take was a little hasty. Little minor league development, the outfield and bouncing around the infield BS. The Sox screwed him over. But he was near a league average bat, and once given 1B and left alone, didn't improve. His horrible April/May played a not small part in sinking the 2024 team to historic depths and dropping him to AAA in 2025 was a positive jolt for this team. So, yeah, if Vaughn finishes out the year on a tear, then puts up numbers immediately next year. I'm going to want some answers. From Vaughn, mostly. He's a professional hitter. Independent hitting labs exist, if the Sox didn't provide that, which I believe they do, now.

Well, I only said one thing, then thoroughly supported it when challenged. I'm not sure what other "facts" I've ignored. Is somebody blaming Tim Anderson for his own lack of sustained success a fact I need to not ignore?

You are literally the peanut gallery kicking in with BS. I don't even understand you posting this comment. You're not proving me wrong about Kopech. You're not even proving me wrong about trying to stay out of these.

It's not unlike y'all making fun of me for not admitting 1+1=3. Miguel Vargas' mechanical change did result in more production. Kopech did start mixing his pitch types, which resulted in better results. The half dozen people who regularly clown doesn't make these things untrue.

No, I'm trying to prove my point by showing what Sox management and Kopech himself had said with the context of what actually happened. I laid out a pretty clear example of Kopech throwing 14 4-seamers in a row. The quality of his pitches didn't change in 2024. He just stopped throwing one single pitch every damn time so that the batter always knew what was coming. And there's a very clear line where he did it one way, then changed, and had vastly different results. Then Kopech said he didn't make any radical changes in LA. And as far as you not getting over using May 1 as a divider for the quality of the Sox team as a whole, they made a series of changes, dropping some bad players, and bringing up their next core - that resulted in a different level of intensity. I'm not cherry picking 8 games and claiming they're a world series contender. I understand that looking at the season in sections doesn't feed your narrative of all bad, always bad, but if you only pay attention to the overall win-loss record, I wouldn't say you follow baseball with any depth. There's a s%*# ton to watch and follow.

Well, if you start a list of Erick Fedde, Jake Burger, Kendall Graveman, Kenyan Middleton, Liam Hendriks, Nick Madrigal, Jose Abreu, Dane Dunning, James McCann and Jose Quintana, you could make an equally erroneous argument about how players seem to fall off a table, or at least never reach the heights they reach in a Sox uniform. It is a crazy conspiracy theory. And not even a good one.

It's not a crusade. I've actually been trying to keep out of these. It's a single comment, where I'm not wrong. Yes, there are anecdotes where a player who was bad here flourished elsewhere. It would be cool if that would only happen to Eloy, Yoan, Tim Anderson, etc. But I'm gonna wait for Vaughn's full year, positive WAR season before I accept the Sox failed him. And Kopech shouldn't even be in that conversation for all he's been through, or more accurately, all of what we've been through. I made a pretty simple statement up front, which wasn't wrong. It doesn't take that much to acknowledge that before the peanut gallery kicks in with the BS. Go in peace.

No, the wrong people need to work on their wrong complex. I'm tired of quoting actual facts - things that actually happened, and that the people involved said actually happened, and wrong people dig in and argue that everybody on Earth's lying because acknowledging reality would mean the White Sox maybe do one thing right, and that would destroy their narratives.

Nobody's saying the White Sox "fixed" him, because he didn't need "fixing". None of what I'm saying is conjecture. It is chiseled in stone, verifiable fact. On July 7th last year, Kopech started the bottom of the 9th against the Marlins in a game the White Sox led 4-3. Kopech faced Vidal Brujan and walked him on six 4-seamers. The next batter was Nick Fortes, who bunted the first pitch, a 4-seam fastball for a sacrifice. The next batter was Jazz Chisolm, who hit the first pitch, a 4-seam fastball for a flyout. Josh Bell came up next, saw six 4-seam fastballs, and hit a double. Do you see a pattern here? Jesus Sanchez was the next batter, and Kopech started him off with a cutter for a strike. He then threw a 4-seamer outside, and another cutter in the dirt before they called an intentional walk. Jake Burger came up next, saw three 4-seam fastballs, and hit a three-run HR. Kopech said this after the game: “It’s coming down to what we talked about a lot lately in-house,” Kopech said. “I need to mix my pitches and not just rely on the fastball so much. It’s difficult to do that when I fall behind and my best pitch is my fastball. I have to get back in the count.” In Kopech's next outing, the 10th inning against the Twins at home on the 8th, Kopech threw 10 pitches, and in no sequence did he throw more than two 4-seam fastballs in a row. See? He started mixing his pitches better. He had said in interviews that the coaches were telling him to mix his pitches. He said Korey Lee helped him be more comfortable with that. That is what happened. His next 4 outings, he mixed his pitches and everything went smoothly. He didn't gain any MPH on his fastball. No extra movement on his cutter or slider. He didn't rework his delivery to hide the ball longer, or whatnot. He stopped throwing the same pitch every single pitch. That is the change he made. He said it was. White Sox people said it was. Dodger people told him to just keep doing what he's been doing, which, now, was mixing his pitches better like the Sox had been harping on him to do, which is all documented and not made up. Oh, okay. He felt happier being at work. But it was the same damned pitch shapes and speeds he was throwing with the White Sox. No changes. The more you dig in, the more obvious it becomes that The White Sox are clearly not at fault where it comes to Kopech. We all agree he's a head case for the ages. He came out and said he wasn't listening to his coaches, and once he did, he started seeing better results. The only logical answer you have now is "Wow, WestEddy, you've been right all along, and I'm just digging in and arguing nonsense because if I give in, that will mean that there is now at least one, single thing the White Sox did right, and this entire BS narrative that gets pushed here is really nonsense."

Kopech was 4-seam, cutter, slider with the Sox, and in his first few games with the Dodgers, Kopech was mostly 4-seam and cutter. After a couple games, he was throwing the same 3-pitch mix he did for the White Sox.

I don't know what to tell you, Tony. I see that he says they changed some things. I acknowledge that. At some point, maybe some of the people piling on here and misrepresenting my point will acknowledge that Kopech seems to be saying that there was no drastic mechanical change that resulted in him becoming a lock down closer with the Dodgers. It's almost like he's saying the main difference was atmosphere, not like the Dodgers reworked his delivery or taught him a pitch.

I just read this a 2nd time. Not saying going to the Dodgers had "no impact". OP said Kopech basically sucked here, got traded, made changes, and became awesome, which isn't the case at all. He sucked here, started listening to his coaches, had a good, albeit short, stretch, got traded, and continued being effective.

That's kind of what Kopech seems to be saying in your quotes. But yeah, good vibes made him mix his pitches more. I guess.

He didn't need fixing. That's the point. All he had to do was stop throwing 4-seamers every single pitch. I'm sure the Dodgers handled him with kid gloves once he got there, and that's why he hasn't been on the IL since. Oh wait...

Yes, that is my argument, because that is irrefutable fact backed up by multiple accounts, including Kopech's own words. The only acceptable response for any reasonable person is, "yes, westeddy, you are correct. Those things you pointed out did happen in that order." I don't know why you need to add your A or B. Kopech probably listened to his coaches selectively, just as your kid probably heeds his mother selectively (per your example). Sometimes he had success, and sometimes he didn't. As for your B, that's insane and completely unreasonable. You're alleging that in 8 years prior, nobody ever gave Kopech a game plan to follow. The fact that the catcher gave him signs relayed by the dugout refutes this. But they were telling reporters he won't listen to them, while not giving him direction, and Kopech decided to go along with that lie, and admit he wasn't following the direction they weren't giving him. Do you see how insane that sounds?!? All in service of distorting the simple fact that Kopech finally, consistently listened to his coaches for his last 5 outings, and finally had consistent success, which then continued after the trade. What you originally claimed is wrong. Admit it, and let's move on.

Well then pick a lane. Either he accepted a change in pitch mix weeks before the TDL and it worked, which is the actual reality of the situation, or reality didn't happen. He quite literally did NOT become shut down the day he became a Dodger. He talked about how he was reluctant to do the actual things the Sox kept telling him to do until right before his 5 strong outings with the White Sox, doing the things they coached him to do. Then he continued having success after the trade. Sure, maybe the Dodgers gained his trust more, and impressed upon Kopech to continue listening to his catcher. Just like the White Sox did when Kopech admitted that Korey Lee was good at impressing upon Kopech to let him call the game. Unless you think Kopech was lying then, and you think the scorekeeper felt bad for all the hits and walks Kopech was giving in his last 5 games with the Sox and decided to just put all zeroes in the box score.

Coincidence? He made the "change" about 3 weeks before he was traded and started throwing clean innings. You can just look at game logs. After a bad outing on 7/7/24 against the Marlins, Kopech said this: 'I've got work to do': Kopech falters, gives up 4 runs in 9th Here's a story from SoxMachine - 7/8/24: Michael Kopech can't shift off his fastball, and Pedro Grifol can't shift off Michael Kopech - Sox Machine Here's pregame notes for the 7/8/24 game, where Grifol reiterates the approach Kopech needs to take: Pregame Notes: No big change in Michael Kopech's role as of yet - Sox Machine Then on 7/10, Kopech threw an immaculate inning against the Twins. Here's discussion on SoxMachine on how he did it: White Sox 3, Twins 1: An immaculate ending - Sox Machine Here's Kopech admitting in the Sun-Times that there's a game plan he's not sure about: White Sox' Michael Kopech finishes Twins with immaculate inning - Chicago Sun-Times From July 8th on, Kopech threw 5.2 innings, allowed 2 baserunners, and struck out 8. We don't need to pretend that Kopech was throwing garbage up until the day he was traded, then miraculously, became a shut down closer the day he put on a Dodger uniform.

I went to look for this...and the inning's over already? Okay, for next inning.