Look at Ray Ray Run

Hard to argue with the reporting presented in this thread on Wheeler and continue with the "it was never genuine stuff." It's OK to be a bit rambunctious and over the top in the discussion, as I was as well, but once one argument is defeated by facts its best to just move on.

Yeah, it was something like if Manny plays 150 games in his age 97 season the offer was better from the White Sox. How could he be SUCH A COWARD and turn down that opportunity lol

Yeah, the Sox never budged and never had an intention of getting to the ask - which was 300. I don't know if it was naivety from never playing at that level of FA, but it was always unrealistic to think the premium player on the market was going to sign for 50 million less in guarantees than the union and his agent had laid out from the beginning. He also has the shittiest agent in professional sports, which doesn't help. I think Hahn knew this as well; hence the embarrassing Jon Jay stuff. I don't blame Hahn as creativity is needed with jerry in charge, but elite FA's don't get cute and don't want creativity; they want the most money possible to set the market for future union growth, and to guarantee themselves the most money possible obviously.

Yeah, I think the Wheeler thing was likely a bad break; the only what I could turn that into a conspiracy would be if the Sox knew beforehand that he had no interest in Chicago and wasted resources to pursue it anyway - which seems near impossible. With Manny, after the Sox entire "at the table PR campaign," and their "shocked eyes" nonsense, it became pretty clear to me that this was all a play to show the Sox were big boys. They used their resources on something they were never genuine about just to get the PR. All PR is good PR in the world of Jerry Reinsdorf.

And I know for a fact that Scott Boras has lost clients playing chicken, but his version involved a market demand which he refused to move off of which caused potential suitors to move on from his client.

Any business man is happy to pay an asset 50 million dollars under market value. I can't afford a 10 million dollar home, but if I found one on the market for five million I'd find a way to acquire enough capital to purchase the home. The true testament of being willing to make a purchase in the premium aisle is whether you're willing to pay market value. In the case of baseball and elite FA's that means you have to be willing to pay above and beyond what you may feel the market is. You don't have to outbid the avarege team, you have to outbid them all. Again, sitting here and arguing that the White Sox were serious about Machado completely ignores the fact that they never ever made a serious offer.

No, that would be negotiating in bad faith. These days agents use the media to put out erroneous reports, just as teams do, but in direct communication you're not saying team A has made a formal offer here, match or we're going there. You don't do it for a couple reasons: 1. If that team scoffs and moves on to sign someone else, you've cost your client a potential suitor and if you sign for less now that team does not trust you in negotiations. 2. If it comes out you had a higher offer and played chicken and cost your player millions, other issues can arise from that. What agents like Boras do, as I understand it, is they "set a market" and say things like other teams aren't scoffing at the price. There is no proclamation of a formal offer, there is merely a price you are supposed to get. The Rangers also just got bent over and taken advantage of by a guy (Boras) who set his clients market so far above what anyone else was willing to pay but he sold it to one buyer, which was all it took.

And his agent didn't know that his client wanted and would seek out a similar offer on the East Coast once the Sox set the market? His agent knew what Wheeler wanted going into negotiations, and if that is how it went the agent was simply playing the White Sox to set the market to get another team he preferred to play for to match. Where I agree with you is the Sox very likely would not know that part of it, so it certainly adds a genuineness to their offer.

No crap the Sox would have have been happy to pay him a contract 50 million under his market value and asking price; that was the entire point. They never intended on paying Machado because they knew they would not have to at that level. They spoke with his agent for THREE MONTHS. The demand was very clear. They were going to get the demand; the players at the top always do. This isn't rocket science.

Amazing the stuff you guys will by that is released by Bob Nightengale.

I'm very much aware as to how Free Agency works. I also know that agents don't call and say "another team has you beat on this final offer" when they don't. They certainly abuse the media in leaking erroneous reports - although they're not supposed to - but when it comes to direct agent conversation the requirements are laid out loud and clear. When you open up bidding they tell you where you need to get to in their eyes. You can negotiate if no one else is; that's not the case with big money players. I literally have no idea what you're arguing. If you actually think the problem the Sox had with a 300 million dollar contract was their fear of overpaying him in the 12th year I have no idea what to tell you. The Sox knew what Manny wanted, what the PA wanted for Manny and Bryce, and they knew they were never going to go there. Hahn knew that so he thought he'd get cute - I'm guessing - to entice him off his demand. Anyone who plays at the top of the FA market knows the agent is not coming off his demand for a premium free agent. And it apparently worked to convince fans like you that the Sox were ready to play at the big kids table, yet they've been in their seat for three years and all they have to show for it is a Jon Jay Pledge Pin.

The sox can't make their own definitions of a big fish lol.

If you know there's zero chance he signs at that level, which is quite obvious as someone who wasn't even involved in the negotiations, then it was absolutely for show.

Actions speak louder than leaked reports by your PR arm following failure. Everything the sox said about a seat at the table was embarrassing then and is even more embarrassing three years later as they're still drinking milk at the adults table while the rest of the table sips on champagne. The sox dress like adults but act like children.

I now have my doubts. Wouldn't shock me if his agent didn't say Zack isn't all in, you'd have to blow him away. Sox proceed to offer 2 million more than their initial offer. At this point, after countless lies about landing a huge fish multiple off seasons in a row , the sox have turned me into a white sox conspiracy theorists. After all, conspiracies are bred from distrust caused by a lack of integrity. White Sox baseball operations 101.

Yes, and the premise is sustained by the fact that he never has. Offering contracts that aren't going to be signed isn't offering a contract by any means. I could offer Machado 240 million to play for my local travel team but it wouldn't mean I was actually ever at risk of paying that contract. No team knew more about what Machado wanted; no team negotiated longer with Machado. The Sox knew exactly what they were doing with Machado and the incentive laden contract.

So that means he's going sign with the Cardinals? What? So he can not be with his brother, but have the same affiliation? I didn't know we were selling Reach toothbrushes on soxtalk.

How many 9 figure contracts have the White Sox actually signed in their existence of their franchise? Zero.

Every guy you listed except for Joc, sucks.

Joc is a low average low contact player; the floors for those players is abysmal even if theyre good players. Two of his past four seasons he has hit 212 or under and had a fWAR per 162 under 1. He's also a low BABIP player who relies on converting a lot of fly balls into production. This way of baseball works, I'm not arguing otherwise, but it's also volatile and the Sox have been on the wrong end of that way too many times for me to trust going forward.

We've been saying this for 20 years. In fact, going into last year the argument was from many, including myself, even if Mazara is just Mazara that's a "huge upgrade." Turns out below average players are much more capable of being terrible.

The Dodgers didn't trade for Mookie Betts to get to know him; they traded for him a year early because they wanted to win a World Series now and not the year he became a FA.

In other words, NL owners don't want to pay for an additional position player this year; which is the word coming from NL baseball people, that there will be no DH next year. Slash, slash, slash....

Yeah, I heard the DH was a near no for next year but will be renegotiated on the CBA and likely will be put in then.

If your argument is the White Sox should trade for elite talent the year before they become a free agent and offer them the exact deal they ask for, then I'll agree that is a nice way of doing it as well; that costs even more money than Free Agency. Mookie Betts didn't become a Free Agent because the Dodgers offered him what he asked for and wanted in Free Agency.