I am avoiding this thread for my own reasons - part of it being things get too complex to explain in 20 words or less and I tend to go too much and still just scratches the surface barely.
FlaSoxxJim says it very well on many things - I don't buy the "odds are..." theory because of the reasons Jim has given, mathematical odds are a human construct anyway, and my certainty of God does not depend in the slightest on the "odds" of anything.
GOWT, I am in total understanding of what you are saying. I would point out that all of the evidence we have today from archeology and elsewhere (and especially important here is what is broadly called the historical critical if Biblical studies) tells us that the Biblical narratives are indeed surviving stories that stem from a people who did live in those times long ago. There is no doubt that those are ancient storiues which have survived to today and have way too much internal and extinsic evidence to not accept that. And there is external evidence for what Moses would have been. The fall of the Hyksos dynasty would have been the end of Moses time of grace with those in power and it is undoubtedly Rameses II who is the Pharoh to whom the Moses stories speak of. On the other hand, I doubt the total historicity of much of the magic sounding stuff in those accounts.
That said: I think searching for "Noah's Ark" is like a huge National Enquirer" waste of time. I don't believe that Noah's Ark ever existed - or happened. Every ancient Mesapotamian cultures and many other cultures has flood stories. People lived in places where there were floods. To believe all animal species and varieities (let alone humans) stem from whatever was brought on to a boat is ludicrous. Plus the internal evidence in the Noah accounts as we have them are several wildly divergent stories and sources combined (redacted) into one text that makes no sense. How many animals? 2? 7? How could Noah know what a "clean" animal was long before Moses established the covenant - total impossible. The story never happened
Much of what is in both the Prime Covenant (aka Old Testament) and the Christian Covenant (New Testament) as narrative is what is termed by Biblical scholars as myth. Myth has an exact meaning and it is *not* "make believe." Myth, Biblically, is an account or story that whatever the original basis has no historical accuracy or meaning whatsoever. It never happened - or happened in a way that cannot be reconstructed, perhaps surmised, but it didn't happen that way - at all. The only analogy I can give is the George Washington chopping down the cherry tree story - it never happened, Parson Weems made it up, but it survives because it answers the question of how honest was G Washington and what his character really like.
The Biblical narratives are a human attempt (guided, I believe by the Spriit) to explain what is unexplainable - the relationship between God and God's people. Which means that while the narratives have no or stupendously exaggerated historical accuracy at all, that is not the point. The stories are true because they attempt to convey truth while the historicity is negligent. There is so much truth, to me, in the Scriptures and it has nothing remotely to do with whether anything can be "proved" because it simply cannot be. My knowledge of God as revealed in the Scriptures (which are the source of the faith and life of the Church, to me) has nothing to do with what can be "proved" or not.
In fact all attempts to"prove" faith are by nature tautologies.
The teachings of Scriptures are the most neglected part of everything. The radical call to live life in a covenantal relationship is *not* the listing of things to do or not do, or doctrines to agree with or not agree with. The call is far deeper, to be in covenant. That is why time and time again people want to return to the superficial and make mountains out of things that are negligble in Scripture, or offer "simple basic Biblical truths" which simply do not exist, the "straight and simple appliable Bible rules" do violence to the Scriptures. It is not that simplistic. And indeed we are called to wrestle with God (see, Jacob/Israel for example) and really struggle with what the call of God is for us in our realities - not make lists of rules or laws that do not exist in Scripture and are human attempts to control. The exhaustive listings of canon law are the other side of the attempt to control, and these things are neither from God either.
Control. Yes the church has been (is yet still in some places) a despotic tyrannical institution that has been all about control. There is much to be said theologically and historically to that fact. And yes, that is not what the Church originally developed and is what the Church is - there has to be a separation from the human (and thus corrupted) institution. That the Church can be simultaneously a palce of much human fault and corruption and yet the Body of Christ in the world is not difficult for me to accept. After all, what human relationship of love does not have its positive and negative. So much more so is the covenantal relationship of love between God and God's people.
When Zach (for example) writes of his profound contempt for the church that he has experienced, I agree with him - the church that he experienced is one that many have experienced and the validity there cannot be denied. I embrace Zach my friend for what he says about the Church that means everything to me because he speaks honestly of real experiences. When others write of the Church that has meant good thinsg to them, yes, I agree there too.
I generally find myself, a person of toital faith, agreeing with the athetists and skeptics because I think all these things require that type of perspective - and they are speaking what is reality as opposed to defending things are not at all defensible and take us away from what is really being said by God, what is rally important.
Now I am pissed off many ( how can he say those things and still call himself a believer!!!! ) but God is so much greater than our fallible attempts to "prove" what cannot be proved by the devices of our own construction.
What any one believes is not words but I will post this next Confession of Faith which says as much more as I will say, doing it all in one post beause I am not trying to run up my post count. (This is the confession of faith of the church body to which I belong and when we put things togetehr anewin 1996, I wrote this - this is my writing adoptd by the church body.) Note: point #7 may be of some interest to some.
Confession of Faith
1. This church confesses Jesus Christ as Sovereign of the Church. The Holy Spirit creates and sustains the Church through the Gospel and thereby unites believers with their Sovereign and with one another in the household of faith.
2. This church confesses that the Gospel is the revelation of God’s sovereign will and saving grace in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Word Incarnate, the Word of God, through whom everything was made and through whose life, death, and resurrection God fashions a new creation.
3. This church confesses the ecumenical creeds, Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, as true declarations of the faith of the Church.
4. This church confesses the Holy Scriptures as the norm for the faith and life of the Church. The canonical Scriptures of the Prime Covenant (Old Testament) and the Christian Covenant (New Testament) are inspired by the Spirit and record God’s redemptive acts, which reveal and announce God’s covenants with the children of God. The Scriptures bear witness to God’s love and redemptive acts for the children of God in every generation. The canonical books of the Christian Covenant (New Testament) proclaim the revelation and covenant centering in Jesus Christ. Through all of the Scriptures God’s spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian faith and call us to service in the world. In the continuation of the proclamation of the Church, God speaks through the Scriptures and realizes the Gospel’s redemptive purpose generation after generation.
5. This church confesses that it acknowledges the Spirit’s gift of the ecumenical tradition of the Church. This church will, as we are able, by reason and mutual consultation, mediate that tradition anew in each generation, always seeking the aid and guidance of the Spirit.
6. This church confesses that the Gospel revealed in Jesus Christ, transmitted by the Scriptures and confessed in the ecumenical creeds, to which the ecumenical tradition bears witness, is the treasure of the Church, the substance of its proclamation, and the basis of its unity and continuity. The Holy Spirit uses the proclamation of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments to create and sustain Christian faith and unity, to create and sustain the Church for God’s mission in the world.
7. This church confesses the oneness of all humanity, for each person has been made in the image of God, created by God and breathes with the breath of life given by God. In the Gospel we all are one in Jesus Christ. The Church, for the sake of the Gospel and for its own sake, is called to regard each human being as a person created and loved by God, a person for whom Christ is Incarnate. The Gospel is to be proclaimed to all people. The evangelical mission of the Church is to all people. Each person is called by the Spirit to receive the welcome, comfort, shelter, and redeeming love of the Church; to partake in the gifts of Word and Sacrament as a member of the family of faith in response to and faith in the Gospel; and share in the mission and ministry of the Church. In accordance with the Gospel, this church rejects distinctions amongst people for reasons of race, ethnicity, color, gender, physical challenges, sexual orientation, cultural heritage, or any other false dichotomy when these distinctions result in divisions in the family of God, for the very diversity of humanity reflects the image of God.
8. This church confesses that it is but a portion of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church which is, will be, and remain forever. This is the assembly of all believers among whom the Gospel is preached in its purity and the Holy Sacraments are administered according to the Gospel. For it is sufficient for the true unity of the Church that the Gospel be preached in accordance with a pure understanding of it and that the Sacraments be administered in accordance with the divine Word, which is Jesus Christ.
9. This church confesses that it is mindful of Jesus Christ’s prayer that the Church be one. This church confesses that the multitude of individual church bodies, of which this church is but one, is a scandal and a sin against Christ and the evangelical mission of Christ’s Church. Accordingly, this church shall not exist for its own sake or seek to perpetrate its existence in human history. This church shall endeavor to work with other church bodies in the proclamation and mission of the Church. This church shall endeavor to dialogue with other church bodies regarding the common faith we share and the differing insights into the fullness of the Gospel that God has granted to the various church bodies and faith-traditions. All are called to be a part of the catholic unity of the people of God, a unity which is harbinger of the universal peace it promotes. This church, seeing itself as catholic, shall take steps necessary, in conformance with this confession of faith, to acknowledge as one in faith and doctrine other church bodies for the furthering of the ecumenical and evangelical witness. With integrity to the Spirit’s calling of this church into being and without forsaking our own history and confession, this church shall seek organic unity with other church bodies as we are able, and where unable, to have communion with other church bodies in the fullest measures that are possible. It will be the continuing fulfillment of this church’s purpose and witness when its clergy and laity can unite with other church bodies in organic unity in our faithful and obedient response to Jesus Christ’s prayer that the Church be one.
10. We confess that we do not have the option of keeping the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to ourselves. The uncommunicated gospel is a patent contradiction. Evangelism is rooted in gratitude for God’s self-sacrificing love, in obedience to the Risen One. Confessing Christ must be done today. It cannot wait for a time that is comfortable for us. We must be prepared to proclaim the Gospel when human beings need to hear it. But in our zeal to spread the Good News, we must guard against fanaticism which disrupts the hearing of the Gospel and breaks the community of God. The world requires, and God demands, that we recognize the urgency to proclaim the saving word of God - today. God’s acceptable time demands that we respond in all haste.
