LDF

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 03:46 AM) Balta's post is very, very, VERY good. I agree with him on many of the points he brought up. I think they went off the rails because Kenny simply couldn't wait. Many of these signing over the winter appeared to have his fingerprints all over them. (veterans in their 30's). Hahn appeared to want to be more patient but apparently he was over ruled as Kenny himself said anything Hahn and his staff want to do they have to run it by him first. The other factor I think was that even with maybe the best stadium deal in MLB (as outlined by the tribune) last year, attendance was dropping dangerously low. The franchise had lost fans from the previous year for eight consecutive seasons. They had lost 56% of the attendance since the end of the 2006 season. The decision was made in part to do something to bring back the season ticket holders. Obviously it hasn't worked on the field. Patience is a virtue, Kenny with his "football mentality," and his "go for broke" approach just doesn't have the capacity to wait three or four or five years so it's always "rebuild and contend" or "retool and contend" and that usually does not work. At least history shows it hasn't worked for this franchise for almost a decade. "It's time" for drastic changes at all levels in the front office. New blood, new ideas are desperately needed. Mark another excellent post, but i would like to add that the prices were dropped this yr and many specials were offered, but when the team was going good, the prices for the tickets became extremely high. max the profit.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 03:45 AM) Thank you for reminding everyone of that. If anyone thinks JR has the Sox best interests at heart, think again. The reason for going for it every year is the bottom line. Has been that way and continues to be. When he passes his family and the investors will all make a huge profit on top of the profits they have already pocketed. not including all the side companies with huge contracts that the org has to honor.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 03:37 AM) Robin broke and dislocated his ankle when his spikes got caught in the mud sliding near home plate against the Red Sox. His foot literally was pointing 180 degrees opposite of the way it should. The injury was so gruesome that a woman in the first row of seats fainted. Yes the "White Flag Trade" was an unmitigated disaster for the Sox. Locally even mild mannered columnists like Bob Verdi were savage in their responses. Nationally ESPN's Baseball Tonight devoted almost their entire show that night to the trade. Joe Morgan was extremely caustic berating the organization. Dave "Soup" Campbell the same although not quite as bad. The "Sox Surrender" was the lead story that week in Sports Illustrated. The story quoted Alvarez and Hernandez as saying when manager Terry Bevington (a first rate buffoon) told them they were traded he was "laughing." The move did incredible damage to the organization on and off the field. Sox attendance dropped like a stone the next few seasons and even in 2000 when the team won 95 games, attendance wasn't that great. Fans simply did not trust Reinsdorf anymore. And remember this took place after the collusion issues in the mid 80's which former commissioner Fay Vincent accused JR of being a ringleader and of course the labor issue of 1994 which cost the Sox a potential trip to the playoffs and or World Series. Mark and as you said in a real nice post, many fans then, like me and now still don't trust the sox owners, and that includes me. i don't trust them to do the right thing in getting missing pieces. they go for the short fix and hope while berating fans for not supporting the team

QUOTE (BigFinn @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 03:26 AM) The worst part of the "White flag" trade was how the White Sox front office betrayed Robin Ventura. If I remember correctly, Robin had a horrific knee injury on a play at the plate during spring training. Robin was busting his ass in rehab while the Sox were fighting with Cleveland all summer. Just as Robin was ready to rejoin the club, Alvarez, Hernandez, and Darwin got traded to the Giants. The Sox brass has been working to rebuild that sense of loyalty throughout the organization, but the "White flag" trade was a true low point in the history of this franchise. nice, post. also 2 of those players who the sox received help in the 2000 championship series .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Flag_Trade

QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 03:15 AM) Just curious as to why? We have had so many hitters underperform. Why is that seemingly on Robin and not Steverson? steverson came from oak with a good rep as a hitting coach. his motto there was something about being aggressive and selective in hitting. keep your head still, look at a area for your pitch, work on hand strength and a quick swing. he has been successful where ever he worked. Hahn went out and got him. last yr, alot of poster were singing his praise, then the early season started. when all this crap was happening in the beginning, a coach can't stop be a good coach, that is why i kept on asking / stating that something else must be happening. i never laid the blame on the hitting coach.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 02:43 AM) What should have been done in 2014? Just pick up scrap heap players and mail it in? Trade Sale? Q? no but trading a shark before the asg was a rt to go, maybe not the same haul as before.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 02:51 AM) KW was all in on Abreu wasn't he? every once in a while someone can get lucky.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 01:40 AM) But looking beyond how they got Bryant...look at the other parts of that list and how they got them. With Rizzo they didn't just defraud the Padres, they did something really important. They gave him time to struggle. They gave him the 2013 season where he hit .233 and they didn't say "this 23 year old is going to be a key part right now and he's going to carry us to the division". They picked up Arrieta and didn't discard him when he put up a 1.5 WHIP in his first 7 starts at Iowa. They gave a talented but failed 27 year old a chance to see if he could turn into anything. They did that with enough guys and turned one of them into an ace quality pitcher. Why were they able to do that? Because in addition to piling up draft picks like Bryant...they also piled up castoffs from teams that were ready to "win now". From teams that did "all in" deals and left themselves no room for the guys that weren't 100% ready to go right now. They picked up scrap heap guys and used their other big advantage - time - to turn as many of them into contributing, controlled, long term pieces as they could because they didn't insist that their team was ready to go because it had to be. i like this very much. but it also means 2 things, 1. a scouting dept that know what they are look for 2. a gm who is smart and in tune with what to look for. all this was done before what, 2 yrs ago. but that trade for shark, where shark went from the northside to al west really helped. adding more to #2 having a gm who know what his job is.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 07:10 PM) http://www.milb.com/scoreboard/index.jsp?s...mp;ymd=20150805 Charlotte- Drabek Birmingham- Montas Winston Salem- Brennan Kannapolis- Peralta AZL & DSL- TBA Great Falls is off. some nice game results so far.

QUOTE (Palehosefan @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 12:57 AM) I just can't see that argument. Anderson, 22, hitting .309 in his 453 AA at-bats with improving defense. Fulmer, 21, 4.50 era in very limited innings at high A/rookie. IF Fulmer impresses at high A and then continues success at AA next year and sticks as a starter, Anderson will likely be with the Sox already. Fulmer is only 6 months younger and well behind in production at higher levels. But, very nice list overall, very few disagreements here. interesting thing ref the bold. does it matter if he is a starter vs relief ??? if so, montas has to be question, he is not a guarantee as a starter as well. the jury is still out on him. no offense intended.

QUOTE (Palehosefan @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 12:57 AM) I just can't see that argument. Anderson, 22, hitting .309 in his 453 AA at-bats with improving defense. Fulmer, 21, 4.50 era in very limited innings at high A/rookie. IF Fulmer impresses at high A and then continues success at AA next year and sticks as a starter, Anderson will likely be with the Sox already. Fulmer is only 6 months younger and well behind in production at higher levels. But, very nice list overall, very few disagreements here. while in my opinion, this will never be fully answered, in a earlier post in this thread someone mention about the perception of players, i am paraphrasing it. this list is all subjective and assembled by great fans and are knowledgeable group. but my problem for yrs has be the prediction of a player and the actual production of players. prediction vs production

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 12:35 AM) Terry Bevington as manager, Oney Guillen for bench coach, Jaime Navarro for pitching coach, Joe Borchard for hitting coach and Mike Caruso for base running coach. where is the green.

name='AustinIllini' date='Aug 5, 2015 -> 11:17 PM' post='3217182' New right fielder - Avi is the rf. New DH - Adam L is under contract New Third baseman - yes i agree New Shortstop - anderson for all concerns is the ss of the future until he is not, then there is saladino New Second Baseman - sanchez and MJ???? i would like a sp to be added. so with the existing contracts and what is needed. i see 2 maybe 3 players. and no one talking about a catcher. i really don't understand this insistent need to have a rf hit hrs by the bucket, lets see how Avi does at the end of the season. he is young.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 10:56 PM) The team's lease on the ballpark runs through 2029. Between the deal with the TV network and the sweetheart deals that the ownership group got for the ballpark, including the revenue from parking, they're going to be in Chicago at least until that point. That's so far in the future it's impossible to predict how things will evolve in terms of financing options for new buildings, growth in other parts of the country, etc. 5 years ago no one would have predicted the kind of insane TV money deals that are commonplace now, just to show how rapidly the economics are changing. i know that the org has to honor contracts and commitments, but with vending contracts, i thought the new owner may have a chance to move, if so desired. meaning out of state. the 2 arz teams, football and baseball. tpa looking for a new location.

QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 11:31 PM) There was an article somewhere (CSN I think) about Avi working with Steverson lately and figuring out what was wrong with a hr today, maybe there is something that was written. i have always been a fan of steverson even when the sox weren't doing ok.

QUOTE (Brian26 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 10:32 PM) Yet everyone wants to seemingly hire Dombrowski, who is near 60 and three years older than Hemond when the Sox fired him. here is a wild arse statement. would the new ownership keep the team in chi???

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 10:15 PM) I asked in an earlier post, when should we have done a complete rebuild? There was no logical situation for it until 2013, which wasn't intended to be a rebuilding year but turned into one anyway. How does that mean we're LOOOONG overdue for one? There was nothing to tear down at the end of 2013, our only assets were Quintana and Sale, both at 24 years old and both the exact kind of players you rebuild around. What year should we have gone for the rebuild? As others have pointed out, there's not necessarily a need to do a complete rebuild with the parity and second wildcard. Look at this season, 84 wins could end up being enough for both wildcard positions the way things are playing out right now. i agree, i do not think a complete rebuild is necessary esp now, i think a couple of final pieces are necessary. whether that is address via trade or the fa's rt. if the beginning of this season, which is a mystery to me, never happen the way it did, and the team won a little more than 1/2 of their games, this would have been a different season. better yet, a little more than a 500 record in the al central would have been better.

QUOTE (AlSoxfan @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 10:26 PM) Do you think Avi's lookin over on the bench at Thompson thinkin he wants my job or maybe Tray's his good luck piece. I 've been hoping to see Tray play a couple games but Avi's hitting pretty well. Really though they should bench LaDunn and let Avi DH an play Tray in RF. Nice win in any case lets see. another 0 fer for someone. how many times like that in the last and i will keep this simple 5 games. why not. that part in the line up is a dark hole.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 11:04 PM) One half of the roster is always conspiring against the other half. You're not a team to be taken seriously unless offense defense and pitching all do well together a lot of the time. i am sorry, but that is a funny visual. i love it. nice.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 11:00 PM) I think Hahn can do a better job simply because he doesn't let emotion get that involved that it carries him away. (Remember Kenny tipping over the post game food spread in Baltimore after a Sox loss and calling the players b****es for one example?) Have no idea if JR ever thinks that or not. I've met him twice but don't know him well enough to know how big of an ego he has. Mark crap.... ref the bold, i really meant that as a rhetorical question and not a real question or a snarky one. i am sorry. i don't know why, i was never a fan of KW ever since the 90's. but i have always cheered for the sox. this good ole boy setup with the sox FO drove me crazy. interesting point, rhetorical question, i really wonder if there was a power struggle during the trade deadline and a subtle switch of a power transfer.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 10:51 PM) I was told by in May from a source that the topic of "selling" has come up from time to time this year. But as long as the Sox are continuing to make the kind of money they are I can't see major changes especially to ownership. The same source told me at the same time that JR was so pissed off at the way things were going he was almost ready to let Kenny leave. We'll never know for sure. In my opinion though and I've said this for a long time including a recent column at Chicago Now / Sox Net, this organization has become stale and set in their ways. Major changes are needed including bringing in successful front office and scouting people from organizations that have consistently won. The Sox desperately need new ideas and a fresh way of looking at their problems. I just don't see that happening however until JR is no longer on the scene. Mark let me asked this question, if KW goes, do you think that Hahn can guide the org like KW have done?? and this is not including jr hands on appch. ref the bold, does jr ever see himself as partly to blame as well???

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 09:34 PM) If both Anderson and Fulmer reach their ceilings, Anderson will be better. It will be a minuscule difference and the White Sox will be very happy. interesting discussion going on with anderson and fulmer. the main point for me is, if and and when they are establish as major league players, they will distinguish themselves. but now, they are as close as being tied to being #1 as there is. great point of views can be made for them both.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 07:09 PM) I've seen a lot of posters here and on WSI lament the fact that we hadn't torn it all down and done a complete rebuild in the past, but looking back, when would such a move had made sense? In 2009, the year after winning the division? In 2011, a year after we won 88 games and would have probably made the playoffs with a competent DH? In 2012, when we lead the division for 95% of the season? 2013 basically was a total rebuilding year, as was 2014. you could argue they should have made 2015 a rebuilding year too, but we were 13th in runs scored last year in the MLB and had money to spend. If we had the same offensive production as the 2014 squad (and we made a few theoretical upgrades too), we're probably right there for a playoff spot this year. It's hard to argue with the results this season that we shouldn't have made 2015 a rebuilding year, but given that we had money to spend I don't necessarily fault them for going for it a little bit (just like in 2011 when we thought we had filled the DH hole). However, I don't buy the argument that ownership was afraid of plummeting attendance if they committed to a full rebuild. There really wasn't a logical situation for it outside of the last couple of seasons, which were rebuilding years anyway. Also, all our main assets in 2013 and 2014 were young and cost-controlled, so a complete sell-off didn't really make sense. i have stated this before, if the past was chg, the sox may never had Jose A and Sale for the run now. and again, from 2008-2011, the sox needed several pieces to have made themselves much better. they really needed to acquire some serious talent but that would mean the sox would need to commit to it.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 07:05 PM) ...2005? that was my ummmm and fyi.

QUOTE (Knackattack @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 06:56 PM) I think Soto not DH'ing against lefties has been Robin's biggest crime this year and we probably would have won a few more games if he had. nah..... there were several more.