southsideirish

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you had to pick a team for the rest of 2007, would you rather have the Cubs or the Sox? They are both in a shambles right now, with the potential to either really turn things around, or end up in last place. Whose chances do you like better and why? Who would you rather run a race against? Carl Lewis or Ron Santo. That is basically what you are asking here.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Adding the right player could spark the offense. Remember what Julio Cruz did for the 2003 team. I'm afraid its going to take a lot to fix the bullpen fully, but if the starters can continue to take the games into the 7th and 8th and Jenks has the 9th, they still have Thornton, the Sox need a couple of guys to be average, and it should be at least competent. Cleveland's bullpen blows and Detroit is banged up a little. Maybe they'll fade a little bit. 1983? Didn't they acquire Cruz like a third of the way through the season? Didn't they win by 20 games? That was a hell of a spark if that is indeed the case. QUOTE(South Side Fireworks Man @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well using your own logic, where have Jim Thome's contributions ever carried a team to a World Series Title? In fact, I guess you could say he took Rowand's place on a World Series winning roster and the result was a drop down to third place. 9 wins? Thome didn't pitch for the White Sox. That was the problem with them last year - not the hitting. QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So where was his unmeasurable contribution to push the Sox over the edge in '03 (88 wins) (Carl Everett was stealing ABs in CF) and '04 (84 wins)? Or for that matter where was it for the Phillies last year, besides on the bench? You are misunderstanding LVSoxFan's point. Aaron Rowand is a jedi knight and he has unbelievable powers. That is his unmeasurables - he can just will a team to win. He is a winner.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 01:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And you expect that to happen with this team? lmao... I don't EXPECT that to happen with any team at all. HA HA HA HA!! QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Looks like I owe you a coke... Yeah, because 2K5 is completely right on this issue. I don't see a point where you can win this argument at all. On a winning team there is no place for fields right now. If they decide to rebuild or look towards the future later in the year then Fields should get a chance. I think that would be the wrong move though. He really isn't ready. The Sox too often rush guys that look like they could be stars. If you are really a fan of Fields you don't want this to happen to him. Let him take his time and be fully prepared so he can stay here for good when he does make that jump.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They are also only 5 games out of the wild card spot with a s***load of games still left against two of the teams ahead of them. Exactly - thank you 2k5. QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This week is the make or break point of the season. Write off the last week to hot teams on the road and we gave the games away. Fine. While the Sox are facing the Yankees, the Tigers and Indians face the Royals and Rangers. The Sox need 3 of 4 and they should be able to accomplish that. If they can not take 5 of the next 7 you then have to realize this team is what everyone expected them to be, a .500 team. Blah blah blah - dude, every week is the mark or break point of the season. There will still be over 100 games left after this week. THe Sox need to win series against everyone. That is just reality.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 01:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Then why did you even mention Everett if the 2 situations are not comparable? There's a difference between a guy like Everett who's a little nutty but doesn't let it effect his teammates and a guy like Dukes who has a history of fighting teammates and coaches. And the next time you decide to bring up wife beating, do a little research first. A simple google search and the line "supposedly wife beating issues in Boston" would never had been used. Honestly, I could give 2 s***s about this subject. I just don't get why anyone would ever want Dukes on the Sox and using Everett as some sort of example to justify a move like that is just silly. Damnit Kalapse - I just showed you why I mentioned him. Do I have to go over this again? OK fine! Southsider2K5 said: and I said: If you think people and teams didn't say this about Carl Everett after the crap I listed in my last post then you are not remembering/thinking. The comparisons are the same in that way. Plus don't ever tell me what I can and cannot mention. I will mention any damn thing I want here. If my posts hurt your sensitive little eyes well then I am sorry. If you feel the need to google something then google it. If you don't then don't. Hell if I care. Get off your high horse already. Also, if you actually read my previous posts it never states that I want him here or that I don't want him here. I am simply mentioning the possiblity of acquiring him. It was meant to be a discussion - not an argument about who is right and wrong. Well, until you entered the equation anyway.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So the guy had some problems with authority early in his career and his wife was accused of beating their kids how exactly does this compare to the despicable acts of Elijah Dukes? Where did I compare those things? Can you show me that? Sometimes I really wonder about you Kalapse. Are you really here just to try to prove others wrong or are you here to discuss things? Southsider2K5 said: and I said: Where do I ever compare their acts and what they do as people? Of course what Dukes did to his wife is worse than anything Everett has ever done in his entire life, but when did I ever compare these things? Come on man! Some of the things Crazy Carl did (are they as bad as Dukes, no of course not, but they are things that people say and have said will and would disrupt team chemisty and attitudes): Everett lasted two seasons in the Florida system. His 1994 campaign ended when his Triple A team, the Edmonton Trappers, suspended him for lack of hustle and insubordination that included a verbal confrontation with his manager, Sal Rende. So in November 1994 they dumped him on the Mets for second baseman Quilvio Veras. On his first day in New York's spring training camp, Everett walked slowly to fetch a ball while shagging flies in batting practice. Dallas Green, the Mets manager at the time, watching from behind the batting cage, groaned and said, "Now I see why people say the kid's a dog." While with the Mets, Everett was kicked out of winter ball in Venezuela for going into the stands after some fans who Everett claimed were throwing beer at him. In 1997 he and his wife, Linda, were charged with abusing Carl's six-year-old daughter, Shawna, and their five-year-old son, Carl IV. The charges were dropped, but a New York Family Court judge ruled that Linda, the girl's stepmother, inflicted "excessive corporal punishment" on the children and that Carl did little to stop her. One day, chapped about being given a day off by manager Larry Dierker, he ripped the lineup card off a clubhouse wall, stomped into Dierker's office, tore the card into pieces and threw them on Dierker's desk. "Make up a new one," Everett barked. (Dierker stuck to his lineup.)

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> His WIFE beat his kids, but you know, you could just keep calling him a wife beater. Hey, I never did - plus I said supposedly - those were all questions as I was trying to figure out all that I could recall about him. Those are strong words and never did I call him a wife beater. So those other things are all factual or no? You seem to only take offense to this one, but the others are true?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> COMPLETELY different people. Everett was always considered a little nutty but that mostly came from his competitive fire and his disbelief in dinosaurs. Elijah Dukes is a straight up psychopath, he's a genuinely terrible human being. I could have swore he had more issues than that and that is why the Yankees? left him unprotected in the expansion draft. Then the Marlins let him go. He had some conflicts with the manager in Houston. He had some anger issues and supposedly wife beating issues in Boston.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 12:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not a chance. As tenuous as the team could be right now, a stupid self-centered prick like Dukes would be the final nails in the coffin for this team. I would be interested to see how the future turns out, but I would bet Dukes ends up being a guy who never plays for a team that wins it all. Guys like him destroy teams, not help them, no matter what their numbers say. I'm not saying your wrong - but wasn't the same thing said about Carl Everett? Look what happened there. QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd say there's a reasonable chance that it wouldn't even take MMac to get Dukes out of Tampa at this point. The question 30 other teams are asking though is...has tampa bay gotten sick enough of this guy's act to just dump him entirely and release him? Don't you think that question would have been answered last year when they suspended him indefinitely and he threatened to quit playing baseball? I don't think he is being released if he wasn't after that. QUOTE(briguy27 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> how about getting matt capps from the pirates? this year he is 2-2 with a 2.97 era, and last year he posted a 3.77 era, but also pitched 80 innings out of the pen, so he is a horse. and how about picking up al reyes from TB? he has a 2.19 era this year in 24 innings oh and he is hitting .333 in his career, so maybe he can pinch hit for konerko sometime Kalapse is correct - plus the D-Rays are looking to acquire relief pitching, not give it away.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How long do we keep making our #1 priority be 2007? How about once it hits 12 games back? 111 games left to play and they are 7.5 games out. Stop with all the doom and glook. They are bound to hit better based on their past history. The bullpen will be taken care of. Jerry Owens looks like the boost needed at the top of the order. The starting pitching still loooks very strong. Clevelands bullpen is not all that great and Detroit's closer just got rocked. The other top teams in our division has holes too, the Sox just have to get on a little roll. What if the Sox are 3.5 or 4.5 out at the all-star break - do you really want to start breaking up the team and looking towards the future? That would suck. Weren't the Twins like 12 games out, behind the Tigers, Sox, and Indians last year with 3 hurt pitchers - Radke, Silva, and Liriano and had Tony Batista playing 3B for them last year? Yet they still came back to not only make the playoffs, but win the division? It would just suck if we actually had a chance to win something and decided to cash it all in so we can look towards the future.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 09:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, starting CF'er with tons of pop. Rowand or Dukes?

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 10:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I want to see Josh Fields up, though I know it won't happen. If they trade Crede you will, but I am not sure Fields is ready.

QUOTE(Jimbo @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 09:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> big fix wowowoow we are going to win it all with more minor league arms. I am sure that is the first attempt. If that doesn't work I am sure they will look elsewhere. You would be dealing when others know your desperate and dealing for a position that is not exactly high in supply. Every team in the league needs relief pitching - it is not that easy to come by. You would probably have to give up a lot to get anything of value in return. Bullpens may be the most difficult thing to put together. QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 10:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My untouchables are Jenks, Danks, AJ, Thornton, and the Pride Crew Yeah, I would bet the Pride Crew has been touched plenty.

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think Ozzie's quick trigger to go to a struggling bullpen has been warrant enough for him to be gonzo. Quick trigger? Only Danks is averaging less than 6 innings an outing and he is at about 5 and a third. That has to be up there at the top of the league for starting pitchers. If the bullpen wasn't that bad you would not be complaining at all. And if the starters were left in an innning longer and the games were being lost you would be complaining that they are being left in there too long. It is a no win situation for the manager. QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, I never said that. I could have told them not to take Sisco and MacDougal though, I've seen them a ton since I live in KC (and have lived here for 10 years now), and both are huge projects...even though MacDougal had 21/24 saves one year, it was in the style of Doug Jones and would make Jenks look like Mariano Rivera in 1996-2000. MacDougal has never been able to throw consistent strikes, same with Sisco. Aardsma, we simply couldn't take another chance on Cotts, and Aardsma might turn out okay, but he hasn't been the same since the Thames homer in Detroit. I think the Danks/Masset deal was a good one, I don't think anyone will be able to sit back and call it "great" until 2-3 years from now, same with with Gio and Floyd needing to produce something at the MLB level....because none of that money was invested in at least one veteran reliever. Of course, look at the Indians, they threw out contracts to Williamson, Baez, Walker and Bradford and most of those guys have predictably struggled and soaked up about $15 million in payroll. Same thing with Howry and Eyre, who were overused and abused by Baker (see White Sox/Torborg/Thigpen). OK, but isn't this the same type of pitcher they acquired in Thorton last year and the Sox were successful in turning around? If you were in Seattle and saw Thorton pitch you probably would have said the same thing about him, but he turned out ok. Guys that throw hard and had trouble throwing strikes? They didn't give up much to acquire either one of Sisco or McDougal. Like I said - the plan was good - the players are failing him. I never brought up the Gio and Floyd trade, however, the Danks Massett deal is going turn out to be great for the Sox. Where was the money invested? Our payroll looks about the same to me. It must have went somewhere. I would never accuse the Sox of not spending money.

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's logical enough, but the supposed MacDougal trade gives us Rowand, and we don't need Rowand enough (in Ozzie's mind, I think) to displace Pods and/or Erstad for the rest of the season, since KW and OG won't admit that Erstad won't be back at 100%, and I don't see them displacing Erstad while he's hurt after the job everyone claims he did for the Sox. We still have Day/Masset as our RH set-up guys in the 7th and 8th, and I can't wait to see how long they hold up against the Yankees in prime time. The Phillies don't have RH relievers to give us, they need help, so we might be doing the typical Borchard/Thornton or Cotts/Aardsma change of scenery move. Tampa Bay wants a relief pitcher for Elijah Dukes if the other team is willing to put up with him. His price would be pretty low right now and could probably be had for McDougal. Would you do it?

QUOTE(caulfield12 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 08:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'll give you a pass on Masset after yesterday, due to the two times he had extended outings (one the Cubs' start) leading directly to Sox wins or comebacks. Still, a 7+ ERA can hardly be called a feather in your cap either, so we're giving him credit strictly based on "potential" and not consistent results. Sisco and MacDougal are not looking good, and Aardsma is struggling about as bad as anyone too. In fact, we're to the point where we don't have a single reliable RHer and too many lefties (Vazquez, Sisco). So then your saying the plan was crap from the beginning? The bullpen looked like crap from the beginning? OK - you are entitled to your opinion. As far as Massett goes, if you can't see the potential in him and probably a starter for us soon, then I don't know what to tell you. That Danks/Massett/Rasner for McCarthy trade was unbelievable. I am sorry you can't see that as a feather in KWs cap. Certain players faile KW and the gang. For instance - McDougal should not be this bad. A quote from Ozzie himself about the hitting. Makes sense to me.

QUOTE(pale_hose @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Okay, so you are now Kenny Williams and you're sitting in your big leather office chair watching the hellish May bullpen performance and feel its time for a change...a big one...Who do you get rid of? Bring up? Trade for? It looks like Aardsma is going to go to the minors and McDougal is going to shipped out to the minors or another team. Article: http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/412924,041SPT4.article

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 07:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Remember all of those rants about "this is a message board" when people complained about all of the concentration on negative stuff... this is soooo karma's payback. So those that don't want negative stuff have to deal with crazy ass nonsensical trade proposals/speculations? Come on - there has to be a happy medium here. Common sense must rule somewhere.

QUOTE(Soxfest @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> KW put the players on roster he gets glory in 2005 now time to take blame in 2007! He did? Who gave him credit? Very few people if any at all. Most thought Oz and Coop did a hell of a job - but KW didn't get much credit. He didn't win any awards for his job in 2005. It seems he always gets s*** on around here. He had a pretty damn good plan and still made some good signings and trades - Toby Hall, Darin Erstad, John Danks, Nick Massett - he still can't win. His plan was a good one with the bullpen - it isn't working now even though it did the first month - but he had a plan and it seemed to be a good one. I like having one of the most aggressive GMs in baseball. I like that he always wants to win. I like that we always seem to have a good product on the field and always seem to have a realistic chance to win. It has been that way under his watch.His worst season as GM was in 2002 at 81-81. He has never had a losing season as GM with the White Sox in 5 years. That says a lot. I appreciate the job he has done and respect it. I have faith in him to do his job and get the correct players in here in order to win this year and the years following. I would be shocked if he didn't make any moves to try and better this team immediately.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, that's his job title. What is his job description. And a better analogy would be Walker is your McDonalds Supervisor and under his watch you and 6 other employees have been taking regular afternoon s***s in the deep fryer. There is no real way for the restaurant to get rid of the lot of you due to cooperate and FDA regulations, so they're stuck with your miserable ass no matter terrible your fries are. In the past when fry cooks had acted up firing the Supervisor would give the whole group a little jolt and brought about some overall acceptable production in the french fry department. Really Walker isn't doing much as your Supervisor just kind of standing around watching his professional fry makers struggle to make a quality french fry so firing him would be no big loss in the grand scheme of things but canning his ass now could get the fry makers going and the McDonald's could once again start performing at the level excellence which is expected of it. So you think a change in the hitting coach is going to get this team hitting? A change in coaching, unless he has lost his players or the players can't stand him or he is an unorganized worthless piece of crap then what is the new coach going to say or do to change this team's hitting? If there is a change made in coaching it will be a cosmetic change to appease the fans such as you. It would be to make a change for change sake and make it look as though a change is going to happen - when in fact nothing different is taking place besides a different sounding voice and different face in the dugout/clubhouse. A change in coaching, in this instance, would be useless and would do absolutely nothing, unless he is infact doing nothing to try to improve this team and he is just sitting back, falling asleep at the wheel, and just watching his workers s*** in the deepfryer as you said. I doubt that is happening. The approach in hitting my be an organizational approach - and it seems to be that way. So whoever they bring in will most likely have the same approach. Why would anyone think it would be any different?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 02:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> NAME BABIP MacDougal: .382 Sisco: .362 Aardsma: .352 Masset: .321 Thornton: .319 Logan: .304 Jenks: .264 The only reliever with a sub 3 BABIP is the f***ing closer. Wow I knew the bullpen was bad, but WOW!

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They don't fade during the last two months of the season the way we have in about 4 of those 6 years. Could that be a conditioning problem? Ozzie makes it a point to play all of the bench guys during the first months in order to save the regulars for the stretch run. Could it be that the players are not properly conditioned during the off season? This would also explain the loss of velocity for the pitchers the last couple years. Who is our strength and conditioning coach? Torborg's son?

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 07:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep, let's play smallball while we play in a launching pad. We can keep giving up outs with bunts in the first inning, and then the opposition will get that one run back by hitting the next pitch of the inning for a home run. The Twins are the same organization that made a terrific power hitter, David Ortiz, be a slap hitter. I don't know how true that David Ortiz stuff is. If that is the case then why has Morneau and Mauer shown good power? David Ortiz was very inconsistent and very injury prone while with the Twins.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 06:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The whole orginazation needs to be restructured, from A ball to the big leagues. The whole philosiphy needs to be changed and geared more toward like the Twins. We have been a homerun or nothing franchise for too long now. We need to structure our teams like the Minnesota. Starting pitching, relief pitching, defense and slap hitters and bunting. Sure you need homeruns, but not to the point where it's homerum or nothing. You have to be able to score whether you hit homeruns or not. The Twins have won the Central 5 out of the last 6 years. We need to follow what they are doing they gotta be doing something right. You have a point, but I also think you have to build to what you think the strengths of your ballpark is. It is a HR hitting park. This is also one of the reasons the Sox go after pitchers that throw sinking type stuff - supposedly.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Who the hell knows what he's teaching....all we can go by is what we see, and there's way too many long swings from our players. The fundamentals on this team sucks though, as even our slappy, no power guys can't bunt. Hasn't that always been a problem with them? Wasn't it last year when Ozzie got so pissed off that he took some out to show them how to bunt? It is ridiculous when Uribe, Pods, Brian Anderson, and even Iguchi can't get down a bunt. I mean I thought Japanese players are supposed to be very sound fundamentally. Do we have the only one that can't play defense or bunt consistently? What you say may well be true and good, but what do you think the change with the major league hitting coach is going to do? Doesn't it seem to be an organizational thing to you? That is a change that should be made from A ball on up, not something that should be learned at the major league level. Don't you think? You are right though - who the hell knows - but some people seem to think that they do know. All those people seem to be posters on this board.