Chisoxfn

Just to add something else. Bradley can easily play CF, which would make Kotsay even more expendable (especially with him signed at 7-8 mill a year the next couple seasons). He does have a no trade clause which would have to be waived, which to me would be the only hold up. Kotsay on the market makes sense and he would definately fit in with the Sox. The general idea I get is that Kenny isn't in the mood to rely on a couple guys developing when he's trying to defend the world title. Right now he wants good guys (that are signed and going to be around a couple more years, but they are proven) and Vazquez, Kotsay, Thome they all fit this bill.

I realize he's been a California boy (I assume he's a native cause I know he was the s*** back at Fullerton, Golden Spikes award winner and all that stuff), but wouldn't you think he'd at least consider waiving his no trade clause to go to the defending World Champs (plus Chicago is a really nice city). I'm sure he could talk to Rowand and ask Aaron how he liked it.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 10:41 AM) Associated Press reporter Rob Blum is on MLB radio speculating that the Sox will look to get Mark Kotsay for center field. I wonder if he's related to Geoff. I doubt this happens though. We need to save money somewhere and KW loves Anderson. Actually one of the 1st names that popped into my mind was Kotsay. He can play defense, is a left handed bat, has pretty good all around ability and fits into the 2 hole. He's a total gamer too. The question is, can we also get a bullpen arm . I could even see the A's interested in Garland, but at the same time I think Sweeney or Anderson for Kotsay could be an option. Especially if they could work in one of the A's bullpen arms (maybe Kiki, whose coming off a down year). I know we'd have to give up more than that, but Kotsay is also coming off a down year (he's a very similar player to Rowand though, imo, but better offensively and maybe just a minor minor tad worse defensively but it ain't by much). Considering Kotsay's contract, I could see the Sox being able to get him under mkt value (although I'm sure they would want cash). I could definately see this happening, although I think it would be interesting to see how exactly things match up.

Wow, were getting some serious cash if that report from the USA today is true. 4 million each year, plus we get Duque's ugly contract off the books. I realize we gave up a really good prospect in Young, but we just got ourselves a guy with good stuff (who has put up above average numbers before) and are going to be (net wise) paying 1.5 million more for him than Duque/Viz. Plus we'll have him another year at 7.5 mill to 8 mill and than the following year we will be able to have his rights (supposedly).

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2005 -> 07:34 AM) Under 95 million for sure. If they got Tejada, we'd have to be in the 100 mill range.

I want another reliever or two.

Crap, this is interesting. I love Tejada so honestly I can't see any reason not to get him. Still, I'd find it odd we'd send Bmac and not Garland or Contreras. Simply becuase it sounded like Kenny was worried about who they would get. But man, I've never seen such an off-season. How the hell am I supposed to study for my remaining 3 finals, lol.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 04:42 PM) The Angels have definately regressed...as of right now. They have a worse catcher (Jose Molina instead of Bengie Molina), still a gaping hole with not even a warm body @ DH, they've lost 2 starting pitchers and only have Ervin Santana available to replace them. On the other hand...this is a situation which could turn around very fast. I'm thinking mroe and more that Molina may well wind up accepting arbitration and end up with the Angels for another year, since the Mets already have a catcher and they were the ones that this year's catcher crop was holding out for. Furthermore, they still have Dallas McPherson @ 3rd base, and he was starting to show signs of big-league promise last year before he was hurt. They also have youth available to fill holes. For all we know Finley or Anderson could have a better season next year if they're healthy. And then of course, they're still the big variable...the trade request from Manny. Don't count the Angels out as regressing yet. They have a ton of young talent, including pitching talent that they could pull into the big leagues, they have tons of people they could trade, and they have a ton of money to spend. The Angels didn't offer Molina arbitration and they are going to be bad next year.

QUOTE(Tadahito Iguchi @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:28 PM) ok, I wasn'y completely sure if my info matched the other threads but I guess it does, Thanks, So what do you guys make of this deal? I'm not liking it to much I think Chris Young is going to be a hell of a player..........And I think Vasquez will get lit up at the cell..............BTW does he have any playoff experience? Ya, with the Yanks (or did he not pitch when the Yanks were in the playoffs?)

QUOTE(JDsDirtySox @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:26 PM) If anyone watch the AFL, how could you not be high on Owens. Also, Young struggled in the AFL. The Sox are extremely high on him. I've said some negative things about him in the past (in terms of people getting overly excited about him), but the guy is a very good athlete. He has tons of speed, but he needs to better utilize it. However, the guy has made a heck of a lot of strides since joining the organization and a lot of people forget just how raw this guy was when he was drafted. The guy has tools.

No need for 2 threads. All the info is going to be in there so I'm gonna merge this.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:15 PM) Quick note: there were rumblings earlier that Arizona was trying to get Cotts included in the deal. Please don't do that KW! God that would be horrid. If Jenks falters at all, I expect to see Cotts come in as the closer. The guy is a freaking stud and we control his rights for a while longer. I wouldn't deal Cotts straight up for Vazquez. I think he's a poor mans version of BJ Ryan.

QUOTE(SoxFan562004 @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:13 PM) yeah, I don't think JG is a 1, but he has that nasty sinker, and in that ball park his value may be more than other pitchers rated higher who are flyball pitchers... but with that said, if Phil wanted Zam or Prior from the Cubs for Abreu, it would take more than just JG Thats what they asked for, doesn't mean they'll get it. I can safely say Garland would be as good of an offer as they'd get. Beats the hell out of Carl pavano.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:05 PM) I know you're just throwing that out there but then again Scotty in center. Ya, I hate the idea of Scotty in center, but we'd still have Anderson to get plenty of AB's and keep guys fresh. Can Abreu play CF at all. I know he's supposed to be a pretty good defensive outifelder. Maybe it would be stupid to even think about playing him in CF (would it have more of a toll on his knees or anything like that, cause I'd hate for him to get hurt). Also, am I crazy to think the Phils would make that deal. I don't know if straight up would work, but the speculation has always been that Philly wants to get a good starter for Abreu. In Garland they are getting a heck of a young starter (I assume they still want to move Abreu, despite getting Thome off the books). Plus they have a log jam in the outfield. The weird thing is, it seems like we'll have made a ton of moves but when you think about it. If we moved Duque and than Garland. We'd have a new starter in Vazquez (I say Garland is better), Bmac sliding into the rotation (I think he can be better than Duque; overall pitching staff stays the same); A new DH (Thome >> Carl/Thomas), a new OF (Abreu>>>Rowand) a new backup 3rd baseman (Mackoviak >>> Blum). Essentially we have improved in all areas except the pen. Offensively we'd be better, defensively a little worse (in center) and the starting staff would stay even (with a shot at being better or worse, but not by much either way, unless you had some serious injuries).

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:04 PM) Someone explain to me why Tampa Bay would want Jon Garland, who is a FA after this year They wouldn't. The Sox have zero chips for Crawford. Honestly we won't be able to deal with a small market team at this point (after dealing Young, the Sox aren't going to have the type of prospects to give up for a team not looking to add payroll).

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 10:01 PM) I have a feeling that last year's success and increase in attendance has made JR and KW think more about maintaining the success in the immediate future, and not really worry about the distant future. If that means payrolls around 90 million, then I'm not too worried. Come on, since when are we concerned about trading prospects? We're not exactly the greatest developers of talent. I agree. I've long said, if the Sox can get into the playoffs this year, they will draw 3 million guaranteed the following year. If they somehow take 3 striaght divisions and somehow win another world series in the near future, they may just position themselves as a favorite in Chicago again. Winning cures a lot of things and with this pitching staff and some of the guys under contract for a while they are in a position (if all goes well and we've seen in years past that that doesn't always happen) to win and compete for it all the next couple years. Hell, I've long said, if we go into the playoffs next year, I don't think a 100 million a year payroll is out of the question in the 07 or 08 season.

Its too bad Edmonds isn't a few years younger cause I'd suggest a deal for him (with one of the starters) cause you know the Cards are looking for pitching. Also, just want to say, doesn't this still leave open the possibility of a Garland for Abreu deal or something along those lines as well (if the Sox wanted to get crazy with payroll). Plus considering they are getting Duque off the books, it wouldn't be a huge increase in Abreu (just saying this name cause everyone's been talking about him over the off-season).

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 09:57 PM) Please no to Dunn? I think you'd warm up to him when he walks over 100 times, hits over 40 homers, and does so for the next 10 years. I'd rather have Dunn than Crawford on my team, but I wouldn't complain about either. That would mean Pods plays center though.

This was a quote by Kenny. Reading into that, wouldn't you think that it would indicate that Vazquez will be the 5th starter. It makes you think he wants to add to this club and get us another chip for the now. We can always turn around and trade a starter later on (and if they are healthy) we'll get equal value in return, imo. I will really miss Chris Young. We all know I've been touting that guy for a long time. If we do move him, it tells you that the Sox really like Vazquez and more importantly they really like Brian Anderson (and to a lesser extent Sween and Owens). I will say this, our MLB club is to me stronger on paper this year than last (doesn't mean s*** though cause injuries and a lack of meeting your potential or being hot at the right time always come into account) but our farm system is weaker (however we got good value for our guys, imo). They will have to go enrich it with talent these next couple years (hell, hopefully if we make the playoffs again we can increase our budget in the draft and start getting some of those value guys that drop due to signability issues and end up going in the mid rounds).

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 09:47 PM) As many know, I'm one of those people who always expect something bad to happen. Am I the only one who thinks that it's still likely this is just the same info from sportsline, and it still could include Garland? Not if Duque and Young are a part of it. Unless the Sox are getting something else. It looks intersting, but the headline says they are nearing a deal and its expected to be announced on Wednesday. It is a brand new headline though. It looks like the Sox are adding another arm. This is really interesting. The Sox may have one of the sickest rotations in a long time (if everyone lives up to there hype/potential and stays healthy). I think Kenny is really worried about the Winter Baseball Classic and may just go with a 6 man rotation early in the season to keep his pitchers fresh. Hell considering who the 6 starters are it isn't a bad early option. Than Kenny has Bmac get more seasoning in the majors and he'll be ready to step in at any time a pitcher is fatigued or if they go down for an extended period of time. It also gives Kenny major leverage in a year when he doesn't need to worry about losing 2/4ths of his veterans. Instead, even if he lost both of them, they'd still have 3 good pitchers and than Bmac, in need of just one more. Plus Kenny would have chips to deal one of those arms (at the deadline) if a serious talent were available (one that would be a great long term and short term move). I hate giving up Chris Young, we all know I love him, but were at least getting pitching and I've long had a theory you can never have too much pitching. Pitching, especially good pitching, helps you win and if you do ever want to deal it, you always get good value for a good starter.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 04:15 PM) Yeah, but if Angelo didn't think he could be a damn good PR for us in the future, he never would have used a 5th round pick on him. Comming out of Arizona, if he were strickly a possession reciever he would have gone in the 7th or undrafted. Technically speaking he was a good return man (up until the past couple weeks he was tops in the NFC in return avg). Problem is he can't hold onto the ball.

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 09:40 PM) I know people dislike him cause he sucked last year, but it wouldn't shock me at all to see KW try and use Garland as a chip to acquire Blalock. It seems as if KW doesn't trust the market right now, and he would rather just avoid the impending contract quarrels with Crede/Boras. I kept thinking of who Garland would go for and Texas is the team I keep thinking of and Blalock is the exact name that keeps popping up in my mind. Hell Nix is out there too (can play CF IIRC). I think a deal for the two of them could work, even though everyone here hates Blalock. I'd love to see us get a real good young CF thats still cheap though for Garland (but I can't think of any out there this second...must be suffering from brain cramps due to finals).

QUOTE(fathom @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 09:38 PM) You don't have a 6 man rotation where 5 of the starters will likely all being making at least 7.5 million per season. There are still so many possibilities that KW can look at if they do acquire Vazquez without trading one of our main starters, but I would believe that when I see it. However, as of now, I would much rather see KW just sit back, relax, and be pleased with how this offseason went. Technically its not that bad cause none of them are locked up super long term. Plus you figure you'll be adding a couple cheaper bats in the next couple years via the farm system (and you know one of those starters will come off the books the next year) with a couple draft picks or a trade in the future. I'm happy with the off-season but if Jon has said he won't be back next year and if Kenny and Coop like the potential of Vaz figuring out his form and if Ozzie thinks he'll shut up and pitch (and stop whining) than I have zero problem with the move. Assuming we aren't reamed in the cash and all that.

Wow, if its Duque I'd be a huge proponent. I still say, look at the Granderson offer the Tigers had. Chris Young is a better prospect than Granderson and Duque is still a serviceable pitcher. Plus you have a serious cash savings for the Dbacks long term (if the Sox deal Duque my guess is they aren't getting any cash in return) plus another prospect (I'd have to think Viz if it were a major league reliever). The Sox than have the rest of the off-season to either stick with those 5 (with Mac sliding to the pen and helping out if someone is tired, an option I really like considering the 5 starters we'd have). Or Kenny has the option of using Garland or Contreras (whichever doesn't sign an extension) as a serious chip to land himself one more big time bat (and a damn good one, whether its a CF or something else). I honestly like this idea more and more (even if it were a Garland trade). I like the idea of knowing we have a guy and if Jon gets a 7/70 offer or its the type of offer he wants, I honestly think he's gonna be elsewhere cause the Sox are going to do what they can to keep an entire staff together and anything over 4 years for a pitcher (unless the extra years are option years) is too long if you ask me.

QUOTE(FGarcia34 @ Dec 13, 2005 -> 07:06 PM) Maybe I missed this or maybe I didnt feel like reading the 26 pages of bickering but why is it assumed that Garland is part of the deal? From the article on whitesox.com: Garland figures to earn in the $6 million range through arbitration, but could be replaced by Brandon McCarthy in the rotation if he was shipped to another team. Of course, the White Sox would prefer to move Orlando 'El Duque' Hernandez and his $4.5 million salary, along with a prospect, setting up one of the best rotations in baseball with Mark Buehrle, Freddy Garcia, Vazquez, Garland and Contreras. The idea of that rotation made me happy in the pants area. So why not ship Chris Young and someone else like Josh Fields for Javier Vasquez and keep Garland around until the end of the season? Thats a deal I have nothing against. Honestly I think the Sox need to move Duque. Its foolish paying a reliever 4.5 million a year and I think you can find a guy off the scrap heap (cause honestly at this point thats what Duque is). I still think (especially given this market) that you'll find a taker for Duque. I'd rather spend 4.5 million on a bullpen arm and than some extra money to play with at the deadline (or that could go towards AJ's extension or Contreras'). I am definately not opposed to the idea of Vazquez for Garland as long as the Sox are thinking long term (and I assume they are). Plus the one thing with Garland is, I am fully confident in him staying healthy (as opposed to some pitchers).