Chisoxfn

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 03:16 PM) Haha my bad, I was more mocking Josh becuase he blindy hates Rex and loves Orton so much. You are actually being very fair Jason. Gracias. I know one thing, Rex has shown better in game ability in his short time, but he has also shown total frailty on the field. I'm not saying he's injury prone cause I think they were both turf related injuries, but it does say something. Orton has taken all the hits and has been a part of this team and is on his way to playing a full season. Being a part of a playoff team as a 4th round rookie should be worth something, imo. I don't think either will be great this year. I guess which you want to go for depends on where you see this team finishing. I see us winning 1 game and if the stars aligned winning a 2nd game (if we get a bye, that may be enough to go to the Super Bowl) but I can't see winning the super bowl. Not if were playing Indy or San Diego (who I think is going to lose today against the Phins, I actually picked it). Hell San Diego may not make the playoffs cause I'll be absolutely shocked if the Steelers don't win out and make the playoffs.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 03:14 PM) I love the Orton lovers: Orton Fan: Orton is so awesome we are winning with him! Grossman Fan: He has the worst QB rating in the league... Orton Fan: So stats don't matter, it's Lovie Smith/Ron Turner/George Halas/Michael Jordan's fault Orton can't complete over 50% of his passes and put up a QB rating over 80. Where do I stand in this? I'm neither, I like both. I just think its crazy to say one or the other is going to carry us to the Super Bowl this year. If we need our Qb to throw for 250 Yds and 3 Td's to win the super bowl, well we won't be winning the SB.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 03:08 PM) Bull.f***ing.s***. Orton didnt have a HORRIBLE game for Bear standards(not saying much) but Orton had all the time in world out there today. The O-line played great. Considering we were dropping back all game I don't think the Oline played poor. The hits and pressure were due to the Bears being behind and the defense knowing they didn't really have to worry about the run. However, they did a poor job run blocking (although they typically had an extra guy in the box, but the Bears have dealt with that all-season). I also can't knock the run blocking too much because we never really found ourselves in a position where we could stick to the run and establish the running game (which is a major problem if your the Bears). The same happened in the Cinncy game and this game reminded me a lot of it (except Orton wasn't the reason we lost).

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 03:07 PM) I really don't think a QB change either way would be too big of a deal in the locker room. The defense/oline probably don't give a damn the only person I can see having an opinion is a guy like Moose who would like to have Rex back in. Honestly, if the Bears annoited Rex there starter, I'd be all out rooting for him. I'd also hope that the team would open things up (I think more at fault in some of these games have been poor play calling by Turner). I also think Turner is calling a lot of these plays because they are doing everything they cna to protect Orton and basically ensure he doesn't make any mistakes (turnovers). The Bears care more about not turning it over than they do about making big plays on offense (imo). Thats just there general game plan and as a whole I agree with ball control, but they need to do a better job mixing up the plays. Pitt did an amazing job calling plays and pretty much taking the Bears pass rush out of the game (and if you do that you can pass on the Bears, especially without Mike Brown and Chris Harris).

QUOTE(JimH @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:06 PM) I agree Jason, the Pirates want him due to Jim Tracey, and the Pirates also want Bill Mueller due to Jim Tracey. Mueller is a perfect fit for them, and Bradley is a worthwhile gamble for a team like the Pirates who have only one way to go ... up. The only thing I'm worried about is the Pirates being good for those three games vs. the White Sox, I'll be there. They have had a solid off-season. Hell, KC has too. Tracy is a very good baseball guy (not saying he's a great MGR) but he's a good manager and more importantly a good guy and thats what you need when your trying to rebuild in a near impossible situation (and Pitt is that). Pitt, Detroit, Mil, Cin, Col, TB are all teams that have been in the crapper for a long time and aside from Mil, they all look like they are going to be there for a while.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 03:00 PM) I'm not saying Clark was wide open but that was a makeable throw and it didn't happen. I really don't think there would be too big of a fallout from sitting Kyle for Rex it's not like there are a whole lot of guys standing up for Kyle in the locker room as it is. I don't know. The offensive line has backed Orton pretty much all season. Kyle is tough, gets up and makes no excuses for his play. They like Rex too, but I really dont' think there is any internal argument right now. This team is unified, despite some stupid report that acts as if there is a mutiny in the lockeroom and that half the team wants Grossman back.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:49 PM) We are basically on the same page I am just saying...why not give Rex a shot when our passing games has already hit complete rock bottom? You say Orton doesn't turn the ball over, and that is true. THe only problem I have is that he doesn't make ANY plays. He will hit a wide ass open receiver, as a 3rd stringer could. But other than that he doesn't make tough throws. For example today, 3rd & goal from the 13 he had a man in the endzone and missed him, that kinda thing costs a team 4 points. Clark was double teamed, I don't think he was exactly wide open. I've seen him make some really good throws and some horrid ones. He's a rookie and there is no reason to expect him to dominate. I also see no reason to expect Rex to dominate this year either. My thoughts is that to create a controversy when your team is winning and is coming off an 8 game streak would be foolish. I think the fallout could be worse. What if Rex comes in and stinks, than you go back to Kyle but have pretty much told Kyle you don't think he's good. You also have quickly thrown Rex out and now you have two guys with downed confidence entering the playoffs. Thats what I think will happen to if we go to Rex. I think we'll win with either of them, but I don't think Rex has had enough reps to be able to come in and lead this team to a win (the defense could, just as it did for Kyle). I also think it takes more than two weeks or so in practice for a QB (who hasn't played a regular season game in pretty much 2 seasons) to gain any sort of timing of chemistry. Talent wise I Think Rex is just a nod better than Kyle. However, I think Kyle has a better QB build and the ability to see over a line (he's got a few inches on Rex). However, I think Rex has always shown really good pocket presence. Both have very strong arms but I'd say Rex's is more accurate at this point. I think both are 1st round talents (so don't tell me that Rex is better simply because he was a 1st round pick; I'm not pointing at you Willie either, just a general statement).

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:46 PM) The QB made of glass with less career TDs than Ryan Fitzpatrick is our savior! I just want to add one thing. There have been quite a few people close to the org that have hinted that Rex isn't 100% yet and doesn't have his timing (its been a long time since he's played a regular season game).

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:44 PM) No one is saying that. This was actually a good game for Orton's standards... Fact of the matter is Orton is doing nothing for our offense. Why not see what Rex can do behind this new offensive line and with Moose as his #1 option? You can say Rex has never done anything in the past but look what he had around him, honestly... Right now games are being won in spite of Kyle Orton providing next to nothing, why not give Rex a shot? You shouldn't be able to lose a job becuase of injury as it is. I have really never gotten into an argument over Rex or Kyle. I happen to think both will be good NFL qb's and I think long-term (if healthy) both can be guys that lead this team to a Super Bowl (well help, they will never really lead this team to the superbowl, but they will be a part of the team). My thoughts are that Rex nor Kyle are going to make the Bears a super bowl team, so why create a total controversy that can have a really negative impact on the team, when in all realisticness, neither are going to be the reason this team wins the superbowl (they could be the reason we don't win it, but only if they turn it over). We aren't going to ask either of them to win games and that is seen based on how we call the games as well. We don't exactly give our QB's the opportunities to throw for 250-300 yds and a bunch of TD's. Typically we are in 3rd and long and teams will double team Mushin and we'll throw short. They don't want to risk turnovers and thats just our coaching staffs philosphy (i'm not saying thats right or wrong, but thats just where its at this year). Because of that I feel that we really have no change between two of them so why create a total controversy. I expect a full blown battle in training camp and I think it will be interesting. I also expect to draft a TE and to go after a guy like Reggie Wayne, Randle El, etc.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:42 PM) Yeah it's not like we have an elite WR, a 1000 yard rusher or a more than solid offensive line or anything... What point are you trying to make by saying you were right this team wasn't bad? I was here all offseason defnding this team tirelessly. I'm simply saying that a bunch of you are totally impatient and just go on your emotions and thats pointless. Orton or Grossman won't make a difference this year. We will go as far as our defense and rushing game carries us. We won't win a game all year based on our QB play. We will lose games based on our QB play (if they turn the ball over). We are a ball control offense that should get short fields. I'd like to see us better take advantage of the short fields. Anything more is an unrealistic expectation of this current team. We have zero 2nd receivers (that have ever proven anything in the NFL), no TE, and a rookie QB. I've long said if we had a premier QB we'd be a super bowl team (no doubt in my mind), but we don't have Carson Palmer or Peyton or even Farve. Rex isn't one either and at this stage in the game thats what it would take, imo. We will fall short, but I stick by my thoughts that we will win one playoff game and this will be a key building year towards our super bowl run next year (or the following year).

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:37 PM) All those with Orton woodies will come out now and say how awesome he was leading us to 9 points!! It's the defenses fault we lost!! Yeah, that's it!! Ugh. Who has an Orton woodie. No one is calling him great, but people are blind if they say he's at fault for this loss. The defense played like s***. I'm going to say that anyone that points at this game as the reason why Orton should be benched as being an idiot with zero football sense.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:29 PM) Actually minus Orton the players on this offense have the makings of a good offense. LOL, maybe in a year. You guys are blind and somehow think Rex is going to turn this into a 25 point per game offense. I'm not saying there isn't a chance Rex comes in and does better. I just think the consequences of this move having a negative effect (on Orton and Rex) are greater than this actually being a meaningful move this year. And I am in general a conservative person and it would be seen in my coaching and my thought of a game. I'm a patient individual who doesn't like being forced into anything. Its reasons like that that I didn't panick when this team lost to Cleveland and everyone on this board was going nuts talking about how s***ty we were. Well I was right, we weren't that bad and I was also right when I said we weren't near as good as some of you all were saying we are. We just got clocked by a team, that when healthy (and they were pretty healthy today) is one of the best teams in the NFL and would be battling the Seahawks for top dog in the NFC (if they were in the NFC). The defense played horrid and the offense found themselves in an early hole. To make matters worse it was freaking horrid conditions (snow) which is bad when you are down by more than 2 scores. You are dropping back and putting the teams back on a rookie QB (we won't win this way) in horrid conditions, when you can't run. Teams will be able to blitz all day and drop back into coverage and hope you turn the ball over. Orton really didn't throw any ill advised balls today and made some really nice throws. Quietly he had one of his best games of the year (regardless of completion % because given this conditions and the fact that they were throwing the ball down field, you weren't going to see a high completion %). He didn't get enough TD's but he made quite a few big time throws. We were in an impossible position, trying to come back against a team that was playing very good with a rookie Qb in a snow storm.

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2005 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:31 PM) I agree with most of this. But I look at it like this, as bad as the d was today, we only gave up 21 points. It's not like they dropped 40 on us. Any team with any SB aspirations should be able to score 21 points. Now our situation is different. We have a rookie qb he shouldn't be in there in the first place. And we've got Grossman, a first round pick, who was the no doubt about it starter for this team before he got hurt, just about healthy. I don't believe for a second that Grossman isn't an upgrade from Orton. If he's not, then somebody needs to get fired for wasting a first round pick on him. I'm a greedy mofo, I know I probably shouldn't be, especially since my dream of the Sox winning the World Series finally happened, but I want the Bears to win a SB. And in this year of a wide open NFC, it's possible to atleast get there. I want to see the guys out there who give us the best chance to get to the SB. And that's just not Orton. I know you probably disagree. Will just see what happens. I think who plays QB for this team is pretty much a who cares. As long as they protect the ball and hit the open guy (when asked to make a pass) most of the time, than its acceptable. After that the defense and running game is going to have to play strong. Thats how this team is built and we'll see if it works out. I still think we are a year or two away from winning it all, although if the matchups aligned themselevs properly, I could see us getting to the NFC championship. If we play Seattle we'll probably get clocked.

By the way, I think all of you taht are whining and complaining are pointing the finger at the wrong guy. Point the finger at the defense cause thats who deserves the blame. If they don't play there game, we don't win. Its just like saying if Jake Plummer doesn't force balls the Bronco's will likely win. Every team has a thing they do well (at least good teams) and if they do that thing well, they will more likely than not win the game. If the Bears play strong defense, we should win.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:26 PM) Since when is 21 points a shootout? Did you guys watch this game. You act as if they only had 21 points. They scored 21 and moved it all day long after that but were playing a time game and field position game. THey could have rolled up another 10-14 on us easily. They would have been stupid to try it though cause you never know what could happen (turnover, tipped ball, etc). They got way out ahead and this was not even close. Maybe a 21-9 game says its semi close, but if you watched it you knew this could just as well been a 35-10 game.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:27 PM) So just becuase we aren't able to win shootouts it's acceptable for Orton to throw under 50%? It's acceptable for to consider 200 yards a great game? The Bears scored NINE points today, it doesn't matter how the defense plays they can't overcome an offense that inept. And who the f*** said we could win a shootout in the first place? You all asked for a 200 yard game. I never did. I asked for us to win and I've long said if Orton is throwing for a bunch of yards it means were playing catchup and are screwed. I know how the Bears can win and when we don't play our game we have no chance. With Orton or with Rex.

Stupidest move we could make is to create a total controversy when its just about a playoff team. You guys are fools to think this offense is going to score a bunch with Grossman. I'm all about QB competition, but it isn't going to start till the off-season (barring injury). Orton had zero to do with this game and he's not going to win us games, he'll lose us games (we don't ask him to win us games). He didn't lose us this game. Now if Orton threw 4 picks I'd say something different, but the defense was the ones that played like total s***. The offense wasn't grand, but it doesn't have the players to be grand.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:21 PM) The Bears defense gave up 21 WHOLE POINTS OMGWTF?!?! Sure the defense played bad but 21 points is not somethign that cannot be overcome by an even mediocre defense. Orton completed under 50% of his thros and a lot of his yards were in "garbage time" Umm, they gave up 21 and were dominate the entire game. Points aren't the only sign. The Bears got clocked and if the weather was better and they weren't just closing the game out by stalling, they could have scored more. Offensively we had no chance at winning this game. You all are idiots to think that we can win a shootout, we can't. Not with Orton, not with Grossman. Unless we have Peyton or Farve or another top QB we aren't going to do that. Were not built around that. Thats like asking a Hummer to win the Indy 500, it won't happen. A hummer could win some off-road challenge though. We need to play our game and when our defense isn't doing is job we have no chance. Plain and simple and there is nothing the Bears can do about that. It doens't have the personel to be a high scoring offense and it won't win high scoring games (unless the defense is getting us field position and the offense takes advtange of the short field).

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2005 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 02:15 PM) Well, you kinda made my argument for me. The Bears d was off today. I won't dispute that at all. But i've been saying for weeks that one off week by the Bears d would result in an automatic loss. We had no chance once we got behind. Orton wasn't horrible today, but he wasn't good either. We're gettin down to the nitty/gritty now. The Vikings are on a Cleveland Indians like run right now. If we want to win this division, we need more from our qb. We can't rely on the d to be dominate every week. We aren't going to win when the defense is off. The same can be said for the White Sox. We weren't going to win if our starting pitching sucked. Fact of the matter is we are built on defense and the ground game. If both are off we have no chance, regardless of whose at the helm. We don't have the talent to beat teams via the air and I'm not talking about Grossman. I'm talking about a lack of experience at WR (although I really like Berrian, but its just his 2nd week back) and I think Mushin is strong. We still lack any weapons at TE (Clark is a f***ing bum) and our WR's are idiots when it comes to helping out and coming back when our QB is pressured (aside from Mushin). This team isn't there offensively and isn't capable to play come from behind football. If our defense plays like it did today we won't win, and thats not Orton's fault. This team isn't capable of winning when the D plays poorly.

QUOTE(3 BeWareTheNewSox 5 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 03:08 AM) They've been scouting Ben though, they want him, especially after that story the NY media made up that Gordon and Skiles were fueding Are you sure that the Pacers are scouting Ben? I'd love to give up Ben, Tim Thomas and another one of our guys (not Deng or Hinrich) and a 1st rounder for Artest. I'm assuming salary wise that deal would work, but I have my doubts as to why the Pacers would do it (unless they are really high on Ben and just really want to unload Artest).

QUOTE(3 BeWareTheNewSox 5 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 12:01 AM) Come on Pax, send Ben and Thomas, give me back Artest and some benchwarmer, and elevate the team Oh man, I'd love to get my favorite player in the NBA back.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 01:14 PM) Bears couldn't get any pressure on Ben all day. He had all kinds of time to find his recievers and that got them their lead. Once they got their lead they handed off to Bettis and that other guy and that was that. Steelers offensive line won that game for them today. As for Orton, it finally got left to him to go out and win a game and he failed, not miserably, but he failed none the less. I also hate how the Bears abandoned the running game in the 1st half. Jones didn't get many carries and Peterson basically got the day off. They couldn't get pressure on him because the Steelers were running all day long and the line wasn't able to just go up field. We were burned on screens, outside runs and eventually a lot of inside runs. There was no chance to ever just go after Big Ben because we never really put them in 3rd and long situations (or true pass situations) and the few times we got them there, they would go with screen plays or short plays and we'd miss tackles and they'd get 1st downs. It was a horrid performance by our defense and this game had zero to do with Orton. In fact, considering the conditions Orton played a pretty good game. The Bears do need Ced back, because he is the one back on this team that can run up the middle and with authority. I'm not saying he should start, but ocassionally hammering with him will be helpful. I think this is a loss that will put the Bears back into perspective and they are going to come out and play one of there best games of the season Sunday night against Atlanta.

QUOTE(Pierzynski 12 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 01:06 PM) Lovie-Kyle is only a rookie so lets stick with a guy who can't pass for 100 yards. No, he passed for 200 yards and didn't really make any horrible mistakes. In fact he made some really nice passes. I don't think any NFL expert could possibly rip Orton for the game he had today. This game was an asswhooping and it had zero to do with Kyle.

If anyone wants to blame Orton for this loss, than its quite clear that they have absolutely zero football knowledge. This game was lost because our defense played like absolute s***. They must have blown 30 tackles today. At least two of those TD drives would not have happened if the Bears had tackled properly (there were quite a few 3rd down conversions where the Bears had the plays stopped at the LOS and missed and than they'd break out 10 yard plays or more to get 1st downs. It was absolutely pathetic. No one should point a finger at Orton this week and if they do they are obviously an idiot. Now you can go out and say Grossman is a better player than Orton but I think anyone that says that is nuts and is just assuming that our other option is better. Plus I don't think Grossman is as ready as all of you think he is. Regardless, this game showed a trend and thats since the 2nd half of the Bucs game our defense has looked suspect. I thought we were going to lose the game to the Packers and realistically we should have (they came up with a few big plays that changed that game, but the Pack out played us and were able to move the ball all over the field) and the Steelers did more of the same. The Bears were relying on arm tackles and were rarely the swarming defense they have been for the most part of the season. I hope this is an eye-opener for them and that they stop listen to the media and everyone drooling over there defense cause the media doesn't make tackles, the players do and they got to run through on the tackles.

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2005 @ Dec 11, 2005 -> 01:55 PM) Why? Freddy has started atleast 33 games in 6 of the last 7 seasons. Is it because he sweats so much? I'm harsh, but he is the one starter I have the least faith in (outside of our #5 spot). I'm just being picky but he really seemed to tire down the strecth (both this year and the previous year) and I always wonder if he'll get hurt. I realize he is an innings eater though and I hope I'm just being overly picky. And realistically I'm not at all proposing to deal Freddy. Only way I'd deal Freddy is if we were getting a better pitcher in return.