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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 02:26 PM) This would just make the tax code even more complicated. The growth is still tax-free. Taxes are deferred until disbursement. Most people's net federal tax rate (not sure if that's the technical term but hopefully you know what I mean) is less than 25%, so they'd need to be pulling out more than $10k a year in gains alone for the 529 to be worth more. That's why, no matter how "smart" everybody is with their money, programs designed like this will always benefit the well-off more. The Obamas just dumped $240k into their kids' 529's. Even upper-middle class Americans would have a hard time dumping that much money into a 529. Plus, you know, the stock market isn't exactly stable. Same as people who were looking to retire or did retire in 2006-2008 got smashed, the same can happen to invested college funds. Yeah, I'd say the Obama's 529 is in the top .25% of 529's or would presume. Did he just dump it all in because he wanted to get it all grand fathered in before he changed the program? Haha.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 02:20 PM) I don't have a problem with that loose definition. As noted in a couple of the links I posted, something like 80% of the benefits of 529 programs go to families making more than $150k. That's not wealthy, but that's not middle-class anywhere in the country unless you're going block-by-block. I define wealthy as > 500K (really in that top 2% category) and again it differs by area. I'd probably argue their are certain areas in the US where 150K (or at least the high end of the middle class range) would be simliar to 75K middle class in certain areas because of COL. Say San Francisco / New York / LA. That said I don't live their so I don't know for sure but San Fran seems pretty absurd.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 02:15 PM) 529 is pretty straight forward and it's really a loophole. Put your money here, anything that it makes is tax free if used for college. That's the extent of it. No more of a loophole than an IRA is a loophole and I'd argue IRA's are pretty self explanatory.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 02:12 PM) Those kids would be no worse off than the kids whose parents can't afford it regardless. And I'm really not sure how this ties into 529's anyway, since that's still parental funding. I'd be all for straight-up tuition grants over either a 529 or a tax credit. Like I said, California's world-class university system used to be entirely free for residents. In the current system, if parents contributed nothing, the kids coming from those who couldn't afford would be better off than the kids coming from those who did afford. I think there is a great place for a 529. I'm a fan of any program that encourages people to save and plan and pay for something in the future. Just as I am a huge fan of us incentivizing retirement (through IRA's) because I think these are all things that we as individuals should control and prepare for. I do realize that you can't always prepare for them and every family has different incomes and needs and clearly a family making 30K can't possibly squirrel away enough money to send their kids to college. But to me the concept of putting me in control vs. the government, which is what these programs do, is great. If you can't tell by now, I like to be in control and responsible. I don't want to be counting on the government to provide the service. I don't mind the tax incentive when it is being used as a way to encourage something critical (in this case minimizing collegiate debt and encouraging savings to provide and educate our future leaders and youth). However, when you put the money into government programs with government schools, my fear is that the overall costs will just increase even more and be even more out of control.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 02:10 PM) What school the kid goes doesn't really matter. What matters is how much their parents make and how much they can even afford to save up in the first place. It's hard to imagine your typical family of four earning $50k a year having plowed away so much money into a 529 (after their 401k and IRA, too, right?) that they'll see anything close to a $2.5k advantage from a 529. It does make sense to end tax subsidies for wealthy families' educations if those same funds can be used for people who actually need it. Why should we continue a program the subsidizes Obama's, Romney's, Bush's, Clinton's etc. kids education with marginal benefits for most Americans? The other question comes in to what is "wealthy". I will always argue "wealthy" is different depending on where you live (maybe that is cause I life in California where cost of living is absurd). Wealth almost needs to be based upon some form of COL factor by area. The reality is there are pretty significant differences in cost of living depending on where you live. Middle Class means 25K - 75K which is a pretty wide ass definition and upper mid is in the low 100's IIRC.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 02:06 PM) That's something that a lot of the older people (50+) who complain about "kids these days whining about college, why I paid for college myself working a minimum wage job!" don't seem to get. Now now, I'm not old, but people were complaining like crazy when I went to school, but for UC's were more expensive (but still cheap than) but have now had similar cost increases to the point that it would be hard not to be in substantial debt if you paid on your own and I think that is crazy. My education was a total bargain.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 02:05 PM) Well hell, I didn't realize you could do both. I f***ing hate our tax system. So needlessly complicated. I think i've pissed away about 600 bucks the last two years not doing this. Like I said, this is based upon my readings and this will be my first year filing. However, I have bounced this off some of my colleagues who practice tax and they all seem to think I have it right (of course they specialize in corporate tax vs. personal).

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 02:04 PM) It's a very weird mindset, to me anyway, to see loss of privileged status as punishment. Are we sure about that? And even if so, it's overwhelmingly benefited the wealthy from the start, so it's a very poorly designed program if that wasn't the goal. The 529 changes and the AOTC expansion are part of a much broader reform proposal. Either way, that's a completely dishonest reading of what is going on here. 529 plans ostensibly exist to help the middle class, but they really don't. An expansion of the AOTC could help them much more, and we can end preferential tax treatment that the well-off don't need to fund education. If you want to keep 529's around just as another tax break for the well-off, okay, but be honest about it. It doesn't really help lower/middle class Americans pay for college, at least not nearly as much as alternative programs could. It would be more honest to say "this program is supposed to help the middle class pay for college, but it's primarily just a tax break for the wealthy. Let's instead use those expenditures to actually help the middle class." So are we just assuming that the well off are going to take care of their kids education? Technically they are adults and the responsibility for college is not that of the parents. I hope that I can bear that cost for my children (or at least a substantial cost for them when they go to school to help them get a head start in life) but that happens to be my personal belief (and I'm willing to sacrifice other things to hopefully ensure that happens). However, there are plenty of others, including people who are extremely wealthy, who might not want to give their kids a dime for college. Yet that kid who comes from a wealthy parent, but has to bear the full financial load of their education and gets no benefit and could ultimately end up starting their professional careers in a significantly worse off position from a pure financial perspective.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 01:46 PM) You seem to be shifting from wanting to help the middle class to calling for more deductions and tax credits for the upper-middle/upper class. edit: or at least preserving those tax credits instead of re-purposing them for a program that could help a broader range of people. It also always strikes me as really weird to view a reduction or removal of preferential tax treatment as "punishment." Technically providing benefits to the lower end buckets when it comes to education is probably a moot point because they already get significant benefits in financial aid / scholarships / grants or at least I presume they would (I'm not sure) so the goal of all of these programs should be to provide benefits for people in the middle class buckets, but in general, make it to where more people can go to school without being completely and utterly broke (but also being responsible for things...I think getting school for free is not necessarily a bad thing because it means a lot less people will be motivated and quality might denigrate; one of the things I liked a bout college was I paid to be their and I knew it and I made sure I took full advantage of the opportunities provided to me and I think that a lot of people I was around had similar attitudes and it increased the overall long-term job benefits of college for me personally). I'd also argue that at some point, all of these people going to college are actually adults and are now responsible for themselves so to base a lot on who their parents are, might actually be an unfair system in and of itself. I knew people who were far wealthier than my parents who never got a dime for college (and had to do it on their own) and people whose families made far less than my parents (my parents are / were middle class) who never had to pay a thing and got free rides. I was lucky that my college was cheap so it wasn't that big of a deal to work and pay for school, but their are some in-equality from that perspective as well, and school is a heck of a lot more expensive today than it was when I went in the beginning of the century. .

Matt / Jenks (and anyone else), I'll try to break down my understanding of the two based upon a hypothetical scenario. I'm not in all the details of this as I haven't yet had to do a tax return based upon all these, but I'll outline it as I understand it and how you can get the general benefits. Clearly there are nuances depending on your individual income levels but I'm going to use a hypothetical scenario of a married couple filing jointly with a household income of $75K. Income = 75K Children = 2 Eligible Child Care Expenses = 12,000 Tax Rate = 25% Dependent FSA: Contributed maximum of $5,000 and you used these accounts to pay for 5000 of your 12,000 in expenses. On this $5K, this money was taken off the top (similar to an IRA) and you did not pay federal income taxes on it nor did you pay social security tax or medicare taxes. That represents a 7.65% savings plus your effective tax rate of 25%, thus you have ultimately saved 32.65% (or $1632.50). Now because you have spent more than just 5,000, but have an income of $75K, you are entitled to a 20% deduction of your remaining medical expenses (capped at $6K in expenses; because you have 1 child). This means that now your child care expenses from 5,001 - 6,000 will be eligible for a 20% tax deduction / benefit, which equates to an extra $200 in savings. The remaining 4,000 in child care expenses will be fully based upon after tax income. Total tax savings using the two programs = 1832.50 (on 6,000).

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 12:33 PM) The FSA essentially IS the Child Care Credit. Same 5k amount, it's just that with using an FSA, you don't have to wait for tax time. Many businesses do this automatically, my wife's does and we use it (mine does too but you only use one). She just submits receipts up to 5k worth (which doesn't take long, lol), and they reimburse every two weeks like a paycheck to our checking account. It's fantastic. Though I do with it was per child, instead of 5k total. They are actually different. One is a maximum 5K (FSA) (1 child or 5 children, its 5K maximum total) and since it is pre-employer, you actually save on your medicare / social security taxes as well so the total tax savings is greater. The other is 3K per child and capped at 6 K total. However, the total savings is between 20 & 35% and depends on your income levels (and is also non-refundable...meaning you have to actually pay taxes to get the benefit).

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 01:22 PM) To this day I am still shocked that you are only allowed to deduct $3,000 per child ($600 refund). Are you kidding me? In Chicago, the $3,000 doesn't cover two months of full-time child care. Yeah, it is absurd how little benefit you get for something as expensive as day care, especially in an era where so many people are dual income (and to be frank have to be).

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 11:45 AM) Off topic but if you looking at a college saving plan I would suggest the College Illinois plan. It gives you the current tuition price for when they go to college. You pay over 10 years and it's a great benefit. We paid 43,000 over 10 years for my daughter and she will go to an out of state school and they are paying 19,000 a year for her during this year. Presume this portion of the benefit is for Illinois residents only. I'm surprised that it works for out of state schools. Of course I'd have to do the math to see what the actual returns are from this sort of policy. Given the insane increases in tuition, you'd think this would be a pretty positive as it provides you with really insurance that you know the cost is covered (vs. estimating what is necessary). Flip side is, its less transparent right, since where your kids ultimately go to school can vary significantly in price so you might prepay and end up paying more and they go to a less expensive school vs. the more expensive so if you just put the money aside, you'd have more that you could roll over to a grand kid or another child (if it went unused).

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 11:41 AM) I would hope the earnings in a 529 plan for 15-18 years is more than a $2,500 tax credit! Well earnings would have to be like $10,000 to generate that amount of a tax credit (e.g., you generated $10,000 and had an effective rate of 25%, you would get the 2500). That said I think they already have the 2500 so not sure how it all shifts and even than I think that 2500 credit has its own exemptions, etc. All of this crap is complicated as can be and I would think a lot of the use depends on (A) whether a family can set aside money for college and (B) whether they have the financial knowledge (or have an adviser) who knows about such options. I think the reality is the wealthy tend to be more likely to have the extra cash (but plenty of middle class people can and should...its just a matter of what / where you spend your money and how thorough of a plan there is...once of course you get to a solid "middle-class" income) but I bet the wealthy also tend to be more financially educated (Or likely to have advisers) who help them take advantage of this. I don't know if the avg middle class person uses a 529 but the average middle class person probably could (if they adjusted their priorities from a spending perspective). That said, every unique family and household has their own things they feel are important. I can't tell you how many people I see that piss money away on phones or tech when they don't take care of more basic necessities / needs and I don't get it, but to each their own. I'm a tight ass accountant who works in FP&A so planning and being cheap is what I do for a living and its how I live my life (and my wife is an accountant as well and stingier than me, haha).

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 11:24 AM) I looked into this when we started him in our daycare, but isn't the catch that you can't then also claim the child care credit? http://www.kiplinger.com/article/business/...are-credit.html Depends on the circumstances, but I know in my circumstances the use of the FSA account is preferred (although you can still use the dependent care credit after...you just have to have seperate qualifying expenses (so you can't have 5K in spendings and apply it to both...you'd take whatever you had to the first and than any remaining would be applied to the 2nd benefit). However, technically if you spend enough on child care, you could actually get the benefit from the 5K (FSA) and the dependent care credit.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 10:25 AM) I mean, if that's the case, that's moronic. That's hurting the middle class, not just the rich. My wife and I were about to start looking into this for our son. But if there's no tax advantage, there's no point. Jenks, I don't know if you guys have daycare or not, but if you do, I highly recommend taking care of a dependent care FSA (maximum of $5K per family). Works similar to a 401K / IRA / FSA, where basically you are using pre tax dollars vs. after tax dollars. So you would save 5K (presuming you have daycare costs of at least that) X your effective tax rate. Not a ton (considering how expensive daycare is) but as far as I'm concerned, every $ helps.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 10:51 AM) I slow cook them in the oven at 200 degrees for about 4-5 hours. and baste them every couple hours with a apple cider vinegar/oil/chili powder mix. Then I finish them on the grill with sauce(usually sweet baby rays). If i had a smoker i would use it, but i dont. I want a big green egg really bad though I love slow cooked ribs. So damn good.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 10:48 AM) We have some friends that moved out to LA a year ago but are gonna move back to Chicago because the real estate. If they lived where they wanted to they would be catching up forever or other places they could afford all would require paying for private schooling for future children. They both have pretty good jobs, so I can only imagine how tough it is. Yeah; Depending on where in LA, if you had a choice, you would definitely want to send your kids to private school. In Orange County, the public schools are all pretty good (well mostly, there are always certain pockets that aren't as good), so that is a plus, but I hate all things LA and would never move there (unless someone wanted to triple my pay...in which case I'd move with a big smile, haha). You do get a lot of open space, parks, ability to do things outdoors year round, etc, and there are a heck of a lot of jobs out here as well, but yeah, I always dream of a day that all my family and friends want to move out of state (and that my job would let me just work virtually, haha).

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 10:37 AM) You liked Jimmy Gets Buckets more than DEAL WITH IT? with the digitized sunglasses? You a fool. I still rock my DEAL WITH IT. I sure do....but I'd settle for either version now. I need one!!! DO IT STEVE...before the kids come cause than there will be no time to make me a custom shirt!!

QUOTE (shipps @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 10:32 AM) ***jason slowly takes off Peanut jersey*** No...one day I'm getting a Peanut jersey though. That is a jersey you can wear with pride. Plus Peyton's nickname is Peanut (not after Tillman but hey, it works). It was cause she was / is so tiny.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 10:26 AM) Sigh. Amazon to begin collecting sales tax for us unlucky f***s who still live in Illinois for some reason. Insanely high state income tax? Check. Terrible weather? Check. Bad housing rates? Check. AND NOW THIS Seriously, why am I still here? Wha wha...move to Cali. I don't know what bad housing rates is, presume property taxes? We get the great weather but have all the other negatives you are talking about + insanely high real estate prices (bad for anyone young or who moved after prices appreciated...for those that got in while the getting was good, well great for them).

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 10:25 AM) I mean, if that's the case, that's moronic. That's hurting the middle class, not just the rich. My wife and I were about to start looking into this for our son. But if there's no tax advantage, there's no point. I had been slacking off for my daughters (have been putting the money aside, just hadn't yet put it in the fund) but this inspired me today to finally transfer what i had put aside into a Utah 529 plan (CA doesn't have any tax benefit and Utah is widely regarded as one of the top 529 plans from a cost & investment perspective). Figure with my son about to come into the world, better get my daughter's set-up. One thing to remember is if you do set one up, make sure all contributions go into it from the parental accounts (vs. a grandparent setting something up independent). The parental ones won't count as assets to the child where one's set up by grandparents would (for financial aid applications, etc). When it comes to tax deferred savings, I always try to maximize it to the extent possible. And yeah, totally hurts the middle class. I realize more people in the upper classes have money to set aside but middle class can also set aside funds, etc, and take advantage of it (i'm a stingy accountant so I try to do anything I can to legally minimize $'s I give to uncle sam). It is free money and I like free (presuming you get in one of the low cost plans and have done your homework on that...some state plans are pretty bad and every state has its own unique rules as to whether you get a state income benefit). Either way, earlier you start, the more time for returns to compound and the smaller the chunk you need to put away to help your kids. Same reason people should always take advantage of the HSA / FSA (depending on whether they are on high deductible plan or normal plan).

And he follows it up with: I stayed @CourtyardHotels the other day and they are giving me a discount. I will be in the city more often because of this. LOL...hard troll.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 10:25 AM) Peanut just doesn't seem NFL starter quality anymore, though. As a safety I'd be all for it. I presume this is more a marketing stunt or something.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jan 23, 2015 -> 10:23 AM) DBs coach? Already hired as is our assistant secondary coach. I suppose he could be getting some form of an assistant coaching job but presume he still wants to play so maybe he has been 100% cleared to work out, etc.