Chisoxfn

QUOTE (joesaiditstrue @ Jul 27, 2010 -> 02:23 PM) Would you guys do this trade (and do you think the DBacks would bite?) Gordon Beckham + Daniel Hudson for Edwin Jackson + Kelly Johnson? You keep your Vizquel/Viciedo/Teahen TriPlatoon at 3B for the rest of the year, or until the playoffs, you get a left-handed hitter with a decent OBP & Pop playing where Beckham was, and you have a rotation going into the playoffs that's pretty solid, and your 2011 rotation would be pretty ridiculous, and you have Johnson locked up for 2011 as well Edit: This also allows you to keep the DH spot a swinging door between Quentin/Konerko/Viciedo or whatever versatility Ozzie wants Are you insane? That package would be twice as good as what the Dbacks got for Dan Haren.

Kick some ass Gavin!!!

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jul 27, 2010 -> 01:10 PM) Levine says to acquire Dunn it is going to take Hudson + one of Flowers/Morel/Bad Danks. http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5414243 I would have a hard time parting with Hudson, solely because of Peavy's injury. Had Peavy not been hurt, sign me up. I wonder if we could do VIciedo and two of that group? I think I would do it, but even than, I have my doubts as to whether we would be a World Series contender which makes me partially think twice. I wouldn't have those doubts if Peavy didn't go down.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 11:35 AM) His FIP has constantly been around 4.6-4.8. He's not a good pitcher and he really doesn't have much room to improve. Mark Buehrle would also stink. His Xfip has been 4.61 (09), 4.1 (08), 4.6 (07), and 5.01 (06). Typically put, pitchers without a ton of strikeout stuff who are more the prototypical lefties are going to have a little higher statisitcal numbers, but that doesn't necessarily make them bad pitchers. I've watched a lot of Saunders and he isn't a bum. He is a league average pitcher who has been successful in the AL. Is he a stud, hell no, but would he look good in our rotation right now, yes.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:57 AM) I wonder who the young pitchers would be that ended up in Arizona. Would they be Sox prospects or Nationals prospects. Viciedo, Buch, Holmberg, and Flowers? Nats than keep Viciedo & Flowers and than add a couple arms? I'm just throwing out s***, nothing more, not even sure if I would do that or not. But it would be intriguing. I would trade Viciedo and Flowers for Dunn, but I doubt that is enough for the Nats. And if you can't resign Dunn, take your comp picks and hopefully draft well.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:55 AM) Who would we send to AZ? We don't have many good arms in the minors. I assume we'd send Viciedo and others to the Nationals, who would keep some of the guys the Sox got and send other prospects to the Dbacks. That or we are going to be giving up a plethora of far lower level guys like the Holmberg's, etc, who I wouldn't assume have that much value at this point (as they are pretty unproven).

I wonder who the young pitchers would be that ended up in Arizona. Would they be Sox prospects or Nationals prospects.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:51 AM) Hudson was nibbling yesterday, and then he fell apart a bit in the 2nd when that dribbler got past beckham. I like his stuff, he has a ton of movement on his fast ball and when he has confidence in his pitches that changeup will be a wipeout pitch. I havent seen him use his slider too much yet, and I agree it has looked pretty flat so far Yesterday, I thought he pitched better than the numbers indicated, but I didn't think he pitched good, either.

Awesome stuff. Buch is a guy to keep an eye on. He has quality stuff.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:29 AM) Have you honestly seen a good slider from him though? I sure haven't. As I keep repeating, he has a plus change-up though that will really benefit him. I've seen some nice sliders from him. The Mariners game was pretty. But you are right, his change-up is a real nice pitch too. The key is, he has some good stuff that he will have to work on refining but he's already made a s***-ton of progress since being drafted by the organization and I fully believe him to be very coachable, with good stuff, and with that I am confident that he will be a big piece for us over the next 5 years.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:32 AM) That package is a lot better than what the Angels gave up. Hudson projects to be about the same pitcher as Saunders this year and he has room to improve. Sale is kind of similar to Skaggs, but Santos is a lot better than Rodriguez. In fact, I think the advantages that the Sox prospects overshadow the fact that the Angels also gave up an extra guy in Corbin. And I think I did point out that the Sox package, if they had offered that, would have been a bit stronger than the Angels offer. I also said I wouldn't make the trade as I have no interest in adding another starter with a hefty salary.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:29 AM) It depends on the scouts you ask, for Poreda couldve been looked at as a potential ace in some eyes, and in others a potential lights out closer. Skaggs has potential, but is still at A ball. Comparable to Dex, but probably better. Ive never been impressed my Saunders and would put him around Richard's value, especially when you consider you will have to pay around 6 million for him next year. And when you consider the contracts/injuries of Peavey/Haren I would give the edge to Haren and the package given up for him as a better trade for the Angels than peavey for the Sox. Poreda was a 1 pitch pitcher who was out of college. Skaggs was a top prep arm who fell due to signability concerns more than concerns over upside.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:28 AM) But both of those were very, very established prospects. None of the guys they got back for Haren have anywhere near the sparkle of Carter, Gonzalez, and Anderson. And I'm not saying the Diamondbacks didn't get much from Haren from a performance standpoint, they did. But just because he's had one bad year doesn't mean he's regressing. His velocity is still there and it hasn't changed much from last year, the home runs are the only thing that's costing him this year. Even then, those might be the result of the park since his xFIP is at 3.40, only about .3 runs higher than it was last year. Was Carter really that established? My memory might be fazy, but wasn't Carter like an A ball player who the Dbacks had just acquired for Carlos Quentin, which at the time, was considered a relatively minor deal (obviously Quentin went on to blow up and carter has kept hitting at an elite power clip). So, I don't quite know if I'd call Carter established. Skaggs was an elite arm in last years draft. Clearly valuable. Corbin was a 2nd round pick...again, clearly some talent is there. Saunders is at the very least a league average arm who at times has been better than league average and he does it from the left side (and by the way, I wouldn't mind having Saunders on the Sox if we could get him on the cheap because we could use another league average starter, imo, but the price is too steap given the limited available trading assets this club has). Is that as much as Gonzalez/Anderson, probably not, but Gonzalez was a young, very toolsy guy that still had to grow into his frame who the A's traded away for Holliday (something I'm sure they regret). Bottom line: I think the Dbacks ended up giving up a lot, because those guys panned out, but they were also trading for a guy who was entering his prime years, controllable, and quite cheap at the time. At the time they traded haren, he is in the midst of his worse year, has pitched a lot of innings, and is owed another 33M (nothing appalling, but it is still a good chunk of money). I'd say that is a bit different of a situation. And in no way am I saying the Dbacks killed. I like the trade for the Angels quite a bit. Long term it works for what they are doing. I also don't have a problem with the Dbacks, ableit, if they could have gotten a more elite prospect, than they should have done it. I think the Mariners killed because they got Smoak who is an elite elite prospect (and I also see why the Rangers did it). I don't think Haren was worth an elite elite prospect at this time. The Angels instead got a guy that could turn into an elite prospect (Skaggs), a quality major league starter, and another young lefty (Corbin) with some goods. I do like the Angels pitcher more than the one built around Joba.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:25 AM) the eye test trumps all It really does, but I see the stuff of a #2 to #3 starter in the AL. Whether he makes it or not, who knows. He has really nice velocity, good movement, and 3 quality pitches. I think he's got the ability and he appears to be a pretty smart, level headed guy. I'll take my chances with Huddy.

And I want to say that I would not have traded Santos, Hudson and Sale for Haren and his contract, which isn't a bad contract in any sense of the imagination but is still pricey. * I know we can't trade Sale for a year, but I'm pointing out the fact that Sale is the guy in our system most similar to Skaggs (completely different pitchers, but in terms of high-upside guys). I should also state that I think the above package might be a little better than the Angels package, but it really depends on how much you value a proven commodity like Joe Saunders.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:20 AM) I would say that the package for Peavey was better than the package the DBacks got for Haren at teh time of each trade. Especially when you consider injury histories for both pitchers, and the contracts they have. I can't agree with this. Skaggs is better than anyone we gave up in the Peavy deal. Saunders is better than Richard. Corbin couldn't have been much different than Dex. Both were relatively high round picks who have had minor league success. Lets not forget we didn't give up a whole hell of a lot in that Peavy deal. It was just a lot of arms that we traded, but the quality of which could be debated. None with major upside, with the potential exception of Dex who still had a lot of issues. Richard should be quite solid in the NL and will be a valuable mid of the rotation starter. And Adam Russel couldn't make it with the Sox so not a whole hell of a lot different than the 4th the Angels gave up.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:06 AM) It's nowhere near significant IMO. Saunders is a mediocre pitcher, always has been. He was fortunate in 2008, a lucky first half gave him some pretty numbers. But now you've seen him exposed these past two years. He's a solid 4th or 5th starter on most teams. Plus, for a guy who is a groundball pitchers, he sure gives up a lot of home runs. They didn't even give up anyone in their top 10 other than the PTBNL. They basically got Haren for two good prospects, a mediocre one, and a mediocre pitcher who is a non-tender candidate next year. He's 30, set to make $6 or $7 million next year with absolutely zero upside. This is one of the worst deals I've ever seen for such an established pitcher. Plus, considering what they gave up for Haren, this is just ridiculous. Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson are future all-stars while Chris Carter projects to be at least a solid Major League bat. To get back nothing close to the caliber of those players is just unacceptable. The Diamondbacks did get a few years of elite pitching out of Haren, so lets not act like they didn't get his production for a period of time. And Haren also was cheaper at the time they acquired him which meant they had to give up a decent amount. But those guys happen to be prospects who panned out (Gonzalez and Anderson).

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:06 AM) It's nowhere near significant IMO. Saunders is a mediocre pitcher, always has been. He was fortunate in 2008, a lucky first half gave him some pretty numbers. But now you've seen him exposed these past two years. He's a solid 4th or 5th starter on most teams. Plus, for a guy who is a groundball pitchers, he sure gives up a lot of home runs. They didn't even give up anyone in their top 10 other than the PTBNL. They basically got Haren for one good prospect, two mediocre ones, and a mediocre pitcher who is a non-tender candidate next year. He's 30, set to make $6 or $7 million next year with absolutely zero upside. This is one of the worst deals I've ever seen for such an established pitcher. Plus, considering what they gave up for Haren, this is just ridiculous. Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson are future all-stars while Chris Carter projects to be at least a solid Major League bat. To get back nothing close to the caliber of those players is just unacceptable. I think Corbin is a top 10 prospect. Call me crazy but don't just go by what BA puts out there as of a year ago. Those lists tend to downplay newly drafted prospects. Corbin was a 2nd round pick, And Skaggs was dubbed my many as having the most projectable arm in last years baseball draft. And he's a lefty. It would be the equivalent of the Sox giving up Sale, Hudson, and Sergio Santos. That is the best I can come up with since we don't have a starter that compares to Saunders. I'd say that would be a pretty solid package. Is it a fair one, absolutely and I think the Angels paid a fair price given that they were willing to take on 33M. Seems like a lot of teams were less willing. And lets not pretend as if Haren comes without blemishes. He's having his worse year and has been over-worked for a few years over. Could that be a sign that he's wearing down? Possibly? People thought the ANgels stole Kazmir last year and I'm pretty sure the Angels would like a do-over on that trade.

And I'm not saying this wasn't a great trade for the Angels. I like it for them, but I also don't think this is the pure highway robbery that some of you are stating. If there were far better offers on the table, I'm pretty sure the Dbacks would have taken those offers.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 06:22 AM) It's entirely possible that their scouts may be telling them that Corbin and their PTBNL are within a year or two going to be tearing it up in the big leagues and that they just robbed the Angels blind. The Marlins have gotten away with making trades like that for years, and have been effective at it because their scouts keep nailing things. The Dodgers pulled off a fast one like that stealing that Ethier kid from the A's in a Milton bradley dump based on the word of one of their scouts. That said...if you're going to do that kind of move with a guy like Haren...you're putting your job on the line based on the reports about the prospects you're getting. If any of them bust, you ought to be fired. Skaggs and Corbin are well thought of in the Angels system.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 06:04 PM) Not saying that it was at all possible, but I would much rather have Haren at that money than Peavey at his salary, and IMO our package for Peavey was better than what DBacks got. Bulls***. None of the guys we gave up was the caliber of prospect Skaggs was and Saunders was a whole lot better and more proven than Richard. That package the Angels gave up is far larger than the one the Sox gave up.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 04:46 PM) This is highway robbery. I can't believe that's all Arizona got. Saunders is a guy who has produced at the big league level, is still cheap, and has been pitching quite good since May (sub 4 ERA). He isn't near as good as Haren, but Haren hasn't exactly been kicking ass this season, is owed money, and has been over-worked the past few seasons. The Dbacks got a pretty good prospect in Corbin and Skaggs is pretty damn legit (PTBNL). Skaggs was a 1st round pick last year where as Corbin was a 2nd rounder last year. Skaggs has a whole lot of upside. So the Dbacks got a quality left handed big league starter and two of the Angels best pitching prospects, both lefties. That isn't that bad of a package. They also saved 33M in cash.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 08:47 AM) I saw this thread started more in response to the Sox not having the pieces to go after an impact player like Haren, Dunn, Fielder, etc because of a weak farm system that wouldnt have any MLB ready impact pieces left ove if we traded for one of those guys. Well the Angels paid a very significant price to get Haren. Saunders, despite his struggles this year, is a legitimate big league pitcher who has had a ton of success in the AL and on top of that they gave up 2 very good prospects and other pieces.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 08:06 AM) any scout from a team interested in him really shouldn't be scared away from his performance, his stuff still looks good. He's a young prospect and any of the teams who want him for the long term would likely still base their assessment of him off their minor league scouting and that when he actually shows some control he can be effective in MLB Bingo. When I watch Hudson I see good life on his fastball, a solid slider, and a pretty solid looking chaneup. Quite frankly, I see a lot to like and I would be perfectly content battling for the division with the current roster. Would I like an upgrade at DH, absolutely, but if it is going to cost Hudson or Beckham count me out. I would be ok giving up Viciedo for the right pieces and am less concerned about guys like Flowers. The big question to me is what would it cost for a Luke Scott type of bat. If it costs Morel, do the Sox consider that deal?

Geeze, people. Grow the f*** up. Can't we just leave this to talking baseball and leave the petty bulls*** at the door? And just an FYI, for those that seem to think there is a double standard here, there is one. Long term posters get slack. They don't always get suspended for stuff a newbie would get suspended for and they get long suspensions instead of bannings when they do go ape-s***. Why, because I know whose been here a long time and I (as can the team of moderators) can recognize posters who have a history of adding a lot to this board. I remember this place when it was a small White Sox forum and I remember how many of our regular members were posting even than. If you are a good poster, you are going to get special treatment and you've earned it. And while some may not realize it, Mods have been suspended and even banned in the past. But we don't go making posts about who was suspended and who wasn't, etc, etc. That stuff stays private. And to be 10000% clear, there is no double-standard or special treatment between a mod and a regular poster. In fact, we tend to be harder on mods/admins.