Chisoxfn

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:28 AM) But both of those were very, very established prospects. None of the guys they got back for Haren have anywhere near the sparkle of Carter, Gonzalez, and Anderson. And I'm not saying the Diamondbacks didn't get much from Haren from a performance standpoint, they did. But just because he's had one bad year doesn't mean he's regressing. His velocity is still there and it hasn't changed much from last year, the home runs are the only thing that's costing him this year. Even then, those might be the result of the park since his xFIP is at 3.40, only about .3 runs higher than it was last year. Was Carter really that established? My memory might be fazy, but wasn't Carter like an A ball player who the Dbacks had just acquired for Carlos Quentin, which at the time, was considered a relatively minor deal (obviously Quentin went on to blow up and carter has kept hitting at an elite power clip). So, I don't quite know if I'd call Carter established. Skaggs was an elite arm in last years draft. Clearly valuable. Corbin was a 2nd round pick...again, clearly some talent is there. Saunders is at the very least a league average arm who at times has been better than league average and he does it from the left side (and by the way, I wouldn't mind having Saunders on the Sox if we could get him on the cheap because we could use another league average starter, imo, but the price is too steap given the limited available trading assets this club has). Is that as much as Gonzalez/Anderson, probably not, but Gonzalez was a young, very toolsy guy that still had to grow into his frame who the A's traded away for Holliday (something I'm sure they regret). Bottom line: I think the Dbacks ended up giving up a lot, because those guys panned out, but they were also trading for a guy who was entering his prime years, controllable, and quite cheap at the time. At the time they traded haren, he is in the midst of his worse year, has pitched a lot of innings, and is owed another 33M (nothing appalling, but it is still a good chunk of money). I'd say that is a bit different of a situation. And in no way am I saying the Dbacks killed. I like the trade for the Angels quite a bit. Long term it works for what they are doing. I also don't have a problem with the Dbacks, ableit, if they could have gotten a more elite prospect, than they should have done it. I think the Mariners killed because they got Smoak who is an elite elite prospect (and I also see why the Rangers did it). I don't think Haren was worth an elite elite prospect at this time. The Angels instead got a guy that could turn into an elite prospect (Skaggs), a quality major league starter, and another young lefty (Corbin) with some goods. I do like the Angels pitcher more than the one built around Joba.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:25 AM) the eye test trumps all It really does, but I see the stuff of a #2 to #3 starter in the AL. Whether he makes it or not, who knows. He has really nice velocity, good movement, and 3 quality pitches. I think he's got the ability and he appears to be a pretty smart, level headed guy. I'll take my chances with Huddy.

And I want to say that I would not have traded Santos, Hudson and Sale for Haren and his contract, which isn't a bad contract in any sense of the imagination but is still pricey. * I know we can't trade Sale for a year, but I'm pointing out the fact that Sale is the guy in our system most similar to Skaggs (completely different pitchers, but in terms of high-upside guys). I should also state that I think the above package might be a little better than the Angels package, but it really depends on how much you value a proven commodity like Joe Saunders.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:20 AM) I would say that the package for Peavey was better than the package the DBacks got for Haren at teh time of each trade. Especially when you consider injury histories for both pitchers, and the contracts they have. I can't agree with this. Skaggs is better than anyone we gave up in the Peavy deal. Saunders is better than Richard. Corbin couldn't have been much different than Dex. Both were relatively high round picks who have had minor league success. Lets not forget we didn't give up a whole hell of a lot in that Peavy deal. It was just a lot of arms that we traded, but the quality of which could be debated. None with major upside, with the potential exception of Dex who still had a lot of issues. Richard should be quite solid in the NL and will be a valuable mid of the rotation starter. And Adam Russel couldn't make it with the Sox so not a whole hell of a lot different than the 4th the Angels gave up.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:06 AM) It's nowhere near significant IMO. Saunders is a mediocre pitcher, always has been. He was fortunate in 2008, a lucky first half gave him some pretty numbers. But now you've seen him exposed these past two years. He's a solid 4th or 5th starter on most teams. Plus, for a guy who is a groundball pitchers, he sure gives up a lot of home runs. They didn't even give up anyone in their top 10 other than the PTBNL. They basically got Haren for two good prospects, a mediocre one, and a mediocre pitcher who is a non-tender candidate next year. He's 30, set to make $6 or $7 million next year with absolutely zero upside. This is one of the worst deals I've ever seen for such an established pitcher. Plus, considering what they gave up for Haren, this is just ridiculous. Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson are future all-stars while Chris Carter projects to be at least a solid Major League bat. To get back nothing close to the caliber of those players is just unacceptable. The Diamondbacks did get a few years of elite pitching out of Haren, so lets not act like they didn't get his production for a period of time. And Haren also was cheaper at the time they acquired him which meant they had to give up a decent amount. But those guys happen to be prospects who panned out (Gonzalez and Anderson).

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 09:06 AM) It's nowhere near significant IMO. Saunders is a mediocre pitcher, always has been. He was fortunate in 2008, a lucky first half gave him some pretty numbers. But now you've seen him exposed these past two years. He's a solid 4th or 5th starter on most teams. Plus, for a guy who is a groundball pitchers, he sure gives up a lot of home runs. They didn't even give up anyone in their top 10 other than the PTBNL. They basically got Haren for one good prospect, two mediocre ones, and a mediocre pitcher who is a non-tender candidate next year. He's 30, set to make $6 or $7 million next year with absolutely zero upside. This is one of the worst deals I've ever seen for such an established pitcher. Plus, considering what they gave up for Haren, this is just ridiculous. Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson are future all-stars while Chris Carter projects to be at least a solid Major League bat. To get back nothing close to the caliber of those players is just unacceptable. I think Corbin is a top 10 prospect. Call me crazy but don't just go by what BA puts out there as of a year ago. Those lists tend to downplay newly drafted prospects. Corbin was a 2nd round pick, And Skaggs was dubbed my many as having the most projectable arm in last years baseball draft. And he's a lefty. It would be the equivalent of the Sox giving up Sale, Hudson, and Sergio Santos. That is the best I can come up with since we don't have a starter that compares to Saunders. I'd say that would be a pretty solid package. Is it a fair one, absolutely and I think the Angels paid a fair price given that they were willing to take on 33M. Seems like a lot of teams were less willing. And lets not pretend as if Haren comes without blemishes. He's having his worse year and has been over-worked for a few years over. Could that be a sign that he's wearing down? Possibly? People thought the ANgels stole Kazmir last year and I'm pretty sure the Angels would like a do-over on that trade.

And I'm not saying this wasn't a great trade for the Angels. I like it for them, but I also don't think this is the pure highway robbery that some of you are stating. If there were far better offers on the table, I'm pretty sure the Dbacks would have taken those offers.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 06:22 AM) It's entirely possible that their scouts may be telling them that Corbin and their PTBNL are within a year or two going to be tearing it up in the big leagues and that they just robbed the Angels blind. The Marlins have gotten away with making trades like that for years, and have been effective at it because their scouts keep nailing things. The Dodgers pulled off a fast one like that stealing that Ethier kid from the A's in a Milton bradley dump based on the word of one of their scouts. That said...if you're going to do that kind of move with a guy like Haren...you're putting your job on the line based on the reports about the prospects you're getting. If any of them bust, you ought to be fired. Skaggs and Corbin are well thought of in the Angels system.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 06:04 PM) Not saying that it was at all possible, but I would much rather have Haren at that money than Peavey at his salary, and IMO our package for Peavey was better than what DBacks got. Bulls***. None of the guys we gave up was the caliber of prospect Skaggs was and Saunders was a whole lot better and more proven than Richard. That package the Angels gave up is far larger than the one the Sox gave up.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 04:46 PM) This is highway robbery. I can't believe that's all Arizona got. Saunders is a guy who has produced at the big league level, is still cheap, and has been pitching quite good since May (sub 4 ERA). He isn't near as good as Haren, but Haren hasn't exactly been kicking ass this season, is owed money, and has been over-worked the past few seasons. The Dbacks got a pretty good prospect in Corbin and Skaggs is pretty damn legit (PTBNL). Skaggs was a 1st round pick last year where as Corbin was a 2nd rounder last year. Skaggs has a whole lot of upside. So the Dbacks got a quality left handed big league starter and two of the Angels best pitching prospects, both lefties. That isn't that bad of a package. They also saved 33M in cash.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 08:47 AM) I saw this thread started more in response to the Sox not having the pieces to go after an impact player like Haren, Dunn, Fielder, etc because of a weak farm system that wouldnt have any MLB ready impact pieces left ove if we traded for one of those guys. Well the Angels paid a very significant price to get Haren. Saunders, despite his struggles this year, is a legitimate big league pitcher who has had a ton of success in the AL and on top of that they gave up 2 very good prospects and other pieces.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jul 26, 2010 -> 08:06 AM) any scout from a team interested in him really shouldn't be scared away from his performance, his stuff still looks good. He's a young prospect and any of the teams who want him for the long term would likely still base their assessment of him off their minor league scouting and that when he actually shows some control he can be effective in MLB Bingo. When I watch Hudson I see good life on his fastball, a solid slider, and a pretty solid looking chaneup. Quite frankly, I see a lot to like and I would be perfectly content battling for the division with the current roster. Would I like an upgrade at DH, absolutely, but if it is going to cost Hudson or Beckham count me out. I would be ok giving up Viciedo for the right pieces and am less concerned about guys like Flowers. The big question to me is what would it cost for a Luke Scott type of bat. If it costs Morel, do the Sox consider that deal?

Geeze, people. Grow the f*** up. Can't we just leave this to talking baseball and leave the petty bulls*** at the door? And just an FYI, for those that seem to think there is a double standard here, there is one. Long term posters get slack. They don't always get suspended for stuff a newbie would get suspended for and they get long suspensions instead of bannings when they do go ape-s***. Why, because I know whose been here a long time and I (as can the team of moderators) can recognize posters who have a history of adding a lot to this board. I remember this place when it was a small White Sox forum and I remember how many of our regular members were posting even than. If you are a good poster, you are going to get special treatment and you've earned it. And while some may not realize it, Mods have been suspended and even banned in the past. But we don't go making posts about who was suspended and who wasn't, etc, etc. That stuff stays private. And to be 10000% clear, there is no double-standard or special treatment between a mod and a regular poster. In fact, we tend to be harder on mods/admins.

I do not agree with the base of this thread and period. This is all over the Angels getting Haren? Lets not act as if they didn't take on a good size contract and a pitcher who is having one of his worse seasons in a long time and gave up some decent talent. The White Sox should not have been acquiring Haren anyway, adding another large pitching contract would really put the Sox in a s***ty position for the future.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 25, 2010 -> 06:52 PM) This is a lot better than I could ever say it. This organization is far too comfortable resting on its laurels hoping that problems work themselves out. This team didn’t have to be put in the situation where losing one piece of the pitching puzzle virtually eliminates them from the trading market. A market that they vowed to search when their doomed to failure DH experiment, inevitably failed. If we lose this division, it’s a because of problems of our own choosing. Let me tell you, the Angels wouldn't look near as good if they haven't had to play in an even s***tier division the last 6 to 7 years. The NL West has been bad for a good chunk of the last 7 years. The NL Central has had some really weak years, even the NL East has as well. Quite frankly, outside of the East there hasn't been a division that is continuously stacked with teams and the AL Central has at least had 2 headed races most years.

I just watched the first episode and as a fan of the WHite Sox this show was phenomenal. Just really enjoyable. Interested in seeing the next episode. I definitely better understand why we have suhc a loose clubhouse.

Just saw it tonight and it was exceptional.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 24, 2010 -> 02:25 PM) Prior to today, kotsay was 1 for his last 19 with 1 BB. That's the hot hand? I'd hate to see the cold hand. I was referring to Vizquel playing over Viciedo.

HRRRRR CASTRO and its evened back up!!! !

Viciedo will be back in the lineup tomorrow. They've just been goign with the hot hand for a bit. I'm not concerned about Viciedo. Kotsay gets a hit as I type this!!!

Alright offense, battle back and help Freddy out here!!! I smell a comeback for our White Stockings!!!

Just remember Omar has been a f***ing stud defensively all season.

Sweet, the hide my ip thing worked. Thanks Hi8is!

QUOTE (hi8is @ Jul 24, 2010 -> 01:03 PM) The sox are on the LA FOX feed??? No, I'm sure it will end up being the Dodgers. But the national game is being done from Oakland. Unfortunately the OC market will get the Dodgers game.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Jul 24, 2010 -> 12:59 PM) Anyway you can point your IP to show its in Europe? Pretty sure being across the ocean blackouts don't apply.. I have no idea how to do that. Can anyone give me some instructions on where I can go and what I need to do to watch this game? I want to watch it while i study.