kapkomet

Holy s***. EVERYBODY's biased, unless it fits your point of view... geesh. What the hell do we even have this god-damned forum for if no one believes ANYTHING the "other side" says?

Gees, people must be at the Bears game tonight.

QUOTE (KipWellsFan @ Aug 22, 2009 -> 05:43 PM) You're going to have to make the argument that he's way more left than Clinton. And you gotta take into account that they were Presidents during different economic times, and most of Obama's economic people were from the Clinton administration. Huh?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 22, 2009 -> 06:50 PM) let me know when GS and GM are worker-run co-ops in a true communist sense and then you can start talking about Marx. It's not even close to "Das Kapital". Aye aye - communism and Marxism are two different things. Run a step and take a mile, please.

QUOTE (jasonxctf @ Aug 22, 2009 -> 05:45 PM) so who owns the rest? Um, the Japanese and Toyoda family? (yes, ToyoDa).

QUOTE (jasonxctf @ Aug 22, 2009 -> 08:08 PM) http://www.cdc.gov/Features/Uninsured/ Bulls***. Look at the census data.

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Aug 22, 2009 -> 05:37 PM) I think the White Sox are going to win the World Series this year. Unless they don't step it up for the rest of the season, then not. There's going out on a limb, right there.

QUOTE (Chet Lemon @ Aug 22, 2009 -> 04:52 PM) Ridge should have made this allegation public when it was happening so Americans could have voted their outrage. But he didn't. Imagine that. You can say anything, later.

QUOTE (KipWellsFan @ Aug 22, 2009 -> 04:41 PM) Two things. First wasn't he bailing out the s***ty companies that weren't making profits? I don't think cruddy companies are the target of marxist anger. Second, wasn't it you who just recently argued that Obama and the Democrats were supporting expanded Health Care just to win over votes? You probably realize that a common leftist position is that capitalists and elitists enact programs like health care just to appease the lower classes and help them accept the capitalist paradigm. Now, that's not why Obama supports a public choice but get your arguments straight. Obama accepts the capitalist and free trade paradigm but believes that the government needs to intervene now and again. This is a moderate position. And I don't really see how Obama is any more left than Clinton. That's laughable. And I have never once said "Marxist" in an "angry tone". It's a simple statement, without the emotional crap behind it. Last, so he's pandering for votes. So what? He's still Marxist more then he's "capitalist".

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2009 -> 03:15 PM) So now you're the one telling us about how people shouldn't qualify for insurance? I'm so tempted to go all death-panel callout on this. Yes, that would be called ILLEGAL aliens.

45 million uninsured. Most wrongly used number in years and years. Edit: they may be uninsured but they either shouldn't qualify for insurance or they do indeed choose it... except between 10-15 million. That's the real number. 2.5% of the US population, let's turn it all upside down instead of actually fixing the issues for those folks.

QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 22, 2009 -> 01:45 PM) Then an agnostic is therefore a Christian. The heart of Marx was he saw this industrial working class as a superior class, with superior morals and ability. The bourgoisie was taking advantage of this class and would eventually be overthrown when the continued capitalism created a larger proletariat class, which would lead to a ripe time for a revolution (most of his book was about classifying when a revolution could occur) which would lead to socialism then to the end (communism!). Just because in marx's socialism the workers would control production and wages does not mean, and that because the capitalists made more money and it was being taken away does not mean that progressive taxation is marxist. Ben Franklin believed in Marxism then, he advocated for progressive taxation in towns, because the landowners had more at stake, and should pay more for a police force. What a MARXIST! Marxism was a complete set of ideals. Cherry picking aspects of the economic one and applying that as the HEart of marxism is self serving. I'd say next to no one is a Marxist today, not the way there were in late 19th century, not the way the Menscheviks were. I mean, when even the people that set out to accomplish marxism end up creating their own ism, how can you apply it to a president doing the slightest part of a part of an equation. If Obama nationalized every industry, said f*** the farmers, banned religion, threw out the bourgeoisie and said it was all part of a plan to achieve a world with no currency, just everyone providing for one another, then, you can say, that Obama is a Marxist. But until then, it's just foolish nonsense. He's nationalized a hell of a lot, he's ruining the US currency (I would argue with intent), and he's more or less suggesting that "everying provid(es) for one another". That's his policy. I'll leave the religion out, on purpose, for now. It's not foolish nonsense, it's what he's doing. He's much more on the level of a Marxist then a Capitalist. There's no question. Put that on a political spectrum, and he's DEFINITELY well left of center on that continuum. I laugh at all these people still trying to paint this guy as a centrist. He's the furthest left president in at least modern history, if not the history of the country.

QUOTE (FlaSoxxJim @ Aug 20, 2009 -> 11:18 AM) Oh, yeah. . . here's a bit of trivia. Joe Besser went on to do the voice for Babu, Genie's sidekick in the badly produced Hannah-Barbara animated version of I Dream of Genie. My gosh, we saw that on the cable channel when we were in Indiana. I was remarably stuck to the tv to watch that POC. Then again, that POC is GREAT compared to 99% of TV today.

QUOTE (Y2HH @ Aug 21, 2009 -> 07:44 PM) I'm also an opinionated douche that's been suspended or warned of possible suspension multiple times. I think they're out to get me, no matter what they say! They mentioned something about my side job as an extreme Kaperbolist as the possible "reasons". Since that's an actual job, I feel this applies to the discussion at hand. You are a dork. They've been out to get me for years. I'm paranoid now. (I need to go find that little noid from the old dominoes pizza commercials but I'm too lazy.

QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 21, 2009 -> 07:47 PM) but that's just taking the broad idea of marxism based off of its implementation by a few governments. It's not just nationalizing, it's nationalizing with the intent of creating complete anti-capitalism. And nationalizing typically means more than merely the gov't becoming the major stockholder in a huge recession with mild restrictions. It's just not marxism. It really isn't. Is it rooted in democratic socialism? yes, but that's a different beast than envisioned socialism of the 19th-early 20th century. At the heart of it, it's the transfer of wealth so that the burgeious did not keep it and the prolariats did. It's at it very simplistic form was the transfer of earned money once the cost was recouped of said commodity and how to distrubute those proceeds. That is such a thumbnail view, but that is at the heart of Marxism. Forget what "modifications" were made to Marxism by communists, Lenin, and so many others to throw that wrinkle in of state run everything... AT ITS FOUNDATION: Marx was looking at the capitalistic opportunity of the burgeouis and didn't like what he saw, he wanted those excessed to go back to the working class. Again - thumbnail view. Tons more to it then that, OF COURSE. But keeping it at it's basic level, that does make Barack Obama a marxist by this 50,000 foot definition. It's not a "dirty word", it's a person who supports taking from the haves (burgeouis) to the have nots (prolateriats). From there, people can make what they want of it. Democrat Socialism is another slant of Marxist teachings - and that pillar is closer to where we are then a "pure marxist" but remember that democrat socialism was born FROM marxist theories, which then still says to be that Obama is a marxist.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 21, 2009 -> 11:13 PM) Yeah, so in reality, the top share holders listed there, probably hold 1% or so of the company. Which was my point.

QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 21, 2009 -> 05:38 PM) responding to nonsense doesn't, I can tell you that. Yep, everything that doesn't agree to your point of view is nonsense. What the hell ever. I'll just leave it at that before I go and get myself suspended. I'm not sure why I even bothered because you're so much smarter then me.

QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 21, 2009 -> 05:27 PM) oh, you are right, that is marxist. Good job. Patronization gets you so far, you know.

QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 21, 2009 -> 05:15 PM) It's much more than that. He believed the new industrial class, the proletariats, were the chosen people of sorts, supermen. After capitalism ran it's course, the working class it created would overthrow the government and make a workers government that would nationalize everything. After years under socialism, the government would no longer be needed, the perfect state of communism. But the importance is placed specifically on the proletariat class. He didn't care for farmers, peasants, merchants, middle class. So no, Obama is not a marxist. Much of the communist manifesto is documenting what makes a revolution possible looking at the French Revolution. The rest is spitting garbage about the proletariat working class. So no, Obama isn't a marxist. Yes, he is. Now you're blending "communism and marxism". He's purely for taking the burgeious out and putting it in the proletariats hands. That's simple enough - and why I tried to keep it so simple. Hello, union payoffs over established bankrputcy law, for example.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Aug 21, 2009 -> 04:55 PM) You oversimplified it about as far as you could possibly go though. Saying progressive taxation = Marxism is like saying that because I was in the military and so was Bush that I should be president. Yea, it's oversimplified. Of course it is. You think I'm writing a book? I'm just saying that he's a Marxist. It is what it is. Now if bat s*** crazy people want to go nuts on this, then they don't know what the real definition is. You said it well earlier when you said people get stupid over the definitions and it's sensationalized. It's a damn theory.

QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 21, 2009 -> 04:38 PM) Kap explain the tenets of Marxism and I'll give you a cookie. I know "economic theory" - which is only a part of "marxism". Marx wanted a "classless society" - he thought that capitalism was going to feed the fat cats and only the fat cats. Hi Balta. You're a Marxist too. Marx was for putting the "proceeds" (for lack of a better word) back to the industrial workers. As a mechanism for this - of course communists would say that state run everything is the way to ensure that happens. I'm not calling Obama a communist, I'm calling him a Marxist. Big difference. Aka, redistribution of wealth from the bourgeious to the common people. And Obama is certainly that.

CPA - never worked in public accounting, though. Also unemployed. For a long damn time.

Obama's no where close to a Nazi. Not even in the same realm. Marxist? Absolutely.

QUOTE (jasonxctf @ Aug 21, 2009 -> 02:28 PM) To the shareholders since I think all of these are publicly traded companies. Honda and Toyota are traded on the NYSE. So the profits go to you and I through our Stocks, Mutual Funds, etc. (incl International Funds) Yes, that's true. Majority of shareholders are where, regardless of listing?

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 21, 2009 -> 02:17 PM) So, basically, we front-loaded the sales we would have expected over the next 5 years into a month or two? I don't know about "5 years" but absolutely. ETA: This also plays right into the timeline for GM and Chrysler - the government is going to say that they are doing GREAT after their reorg - LOOKIE AT WHAT WE DID... yea... ok.