kapkomet

QUOTE(Cerbaho-WG @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 06:30 PM) Please tell me where I said that. I said "a good percentage", not once did I say all, the vast majority or whatever you're construing it to be. And like I alluded to in my post, you're basing your judgement on the US health care system on anecdotal experiences. I invite you to go to various places that have socialized health care or talk to people who come from said countries, but until then, it's a lot sound and fury signifying nothing. Lastly, could you please extrapolate on why whenever the American government gets a hold of something they f*** it up, but in many european countries they do just fine? Does economics and decision making enter an alternate universe when you go over the Atlantic? Actually, yes. My argument centers around the fact that NOTHING gets done in our government today without boatloads of money from lobbyists to get it done. It's interesting, to me, that healthcare really has pretty much dropped off the radar for the most part. I think a lot of it is this stupid immagration bill right now, but that's a different subject altogether. The reason that I think it has gone away as a subject, save for Obama and Hillary, is because the money got to their campaigns. This is sort of a contradiction, in a sense, from what we're talking about (that the issue is up front on a lot of people's minds). You're right, in the fact that most people, who need something done, gets it done. As I stated, I know people personally that have had issues and that can skew my point of view. I've been fortunate to be able to afford health care all my life (once I got off my parent's insurance). That certainly makes it easier for me to sit here on my pearch. I agree with that part. Having said that, I've talked to my fair share of foriegn folks, and they say by far the US has the most innovative health program in the world, and if the government took it over, that facet would die. Is that every day "going to the dr.'s office"? No. But I will argue that the industry must be looked at as a whole.

QUOTE(Cerbaho-WG @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 06:14 PM) Bullf***ings***. I'm sick and tired of seeing conservatives mindlessly blabber about Canadians facing long lines because of socialized health care. It's absolute and utter s***, and the only reason why conservatives spout off this lie of an argument is because a good percentage of them have never used a socialized health care system and also negatively react to the stigma of the word "socialism". I've lived in Germany for ten months now and have had several encounters with the German health care system which is socialized. And you know what? It's fabulous. I come from an upple-middle class family that luckily can afford good health insurance and the German system is comparable if not better in every single aspect. The only negative aspect is that because I am not German, I am unable to receive the benefits that every German receives, namely the almost lack of doctor's fees and perscription costs. One of the questions I had when arriving in Germany that I wanted to pose to my flatmates was how they thought the health care system was run here in Germany and if it was inefficient or not. I have yet to hear a major qualm from my roommates, friends, professors, etc. I then asked about waiting months for an operation, and they debunked it as a load of s***. If you need an MRI or CAT scan, you will get it within a matter of days just like in America. If you need an operation that is not needed ASAP, it's put off for a bit, one or two months usually. But if you need a medical procedure shortly, you'll get it and not get charged up the ass for it. But I forget, this is America. Home of the free, land of the brave, and country sandwiched between Turkmenistan and Senegal for income equality. So know I don't know anything? Whatever. I know for a fact of people I know that have had issues in Canada with the healthcare system. I'm not going to go into it, but it has problems, and limited choices compared to what we have here. And, this is not Germany, it's America, where the government gets ahold of any program, they screw it up.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 04:19 PM) Health Care provided by government is not a right. I see no logical argument that can be made otherwise. However, health care is a matter of high priority, of national pride and of practicality. So clearly, it needs attention and money. And while I am usually in favor of private business over government buearacracy, in the case of healthcare, I actually think we need more government involvement. This is for one simple reason - providing healthcare, like providing police and fire protection, is incongruous to the aims of for-profit business. Their goals stand in direct opposition to one another in many ways. Therefore, any for-profit business in those areas by nature will result in lower quality product. The government needs to be involved, to at least the level where it incentivizes all involved to target actual quality output. I do not know how exactly to accomomplish that, but simply handing over healthcare to private insurance and providers clearly is not the answer - as evidenced by this country's lackluster system. I wonder where the happy medium is. I've yet to hear of any plan that is a happy medium. I think private healthcare is 100% the way to go, for many reasons, but I also realize that there has to be a saftey net. The problem I have is social security was supposed to be a safety net, and now most people see it as a "right". I know right now that the 7.65% of my paycheck going to Social Security is something I have lost forever. I will never see a dime of it, so really, it's just another income tax. That's going off topic, but we're going to have to have another X% come out of our checks for health care. I am extremely blessed to be working where I work, where the company WANTS to take care of their people, at an affordable cost. My insurance is EXTREMELY cheap compared to 99.99% of the companies out there. I know that's not the case for everyone, and I also know that there's some people who try very hard and end up not wanting to put almost their entire pay into health care. So again, I ask, where's the happy medium?

DOO IT! TODAY! This makes WAAAAAY too much sense.

DJ used to suck, too. He's gotten a lot better.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 08:10 PM) I wouldn't use Sisco and Molina in your argument, as those were two players that had a direct connection to Ozzie's managing. However, it's games like today that make me appreciate that Toby Hall got some practice at 1B during spring training. And FWIW, Cintron's been all but begging to get put on the DL all season, but Ozzie doesn't want to due to having no other back-up SS. I've never said this is all Ozzie's fault. Him and KW have had a horrendous season. You're still on that s***? Wow. Dude, Ozzie could have done that 10,000 times and the injury wouldn't have happened. But now that it did, OZZIE MAKES THE f***ING LINEUPS OMG !#%!@!!!! Yikes.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 03:42 PM) One of Poppy's personalities is back you mean. Eggggggscactly.

QUOTE(POPPY_HIDALGO @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 10:35 AM) 1. It's the Sox! Come on! They are fighters til the last drip of snot off a dogs ass. 2. The Twins made their come back last year and how bout that run the Indians pulled off in 05? It's not like it's never happened in this division before. The Indians will come back to earth and the Tigers just ain't that good. Once these bats wake up it's go time. 3. Ozzie. He won't let this continue. The man has too much heart. 4. Kenny Williams. I think the Sox will be more buyers than sellers come trade deadline. I think Jacque Jones would be a great pick up. He swings a good bat and he hates the Cubs. 5. Josh Fields. This kid looks great. Crede who? Forget about it. It's a new era of 3rd basemen for the Chicago White Sox. The Josh Fields era. It's like Ventura on crack. The kids gonna be great. 6. The fans. We have the best fans in baseball. Look how they've stood by this team. They are still selling out every night and the players recognize that. The team realizes this is about more than a pay check. It's about an entire community banding together. We all need this. We deserve this. 7. It can't get any worse. It has to get better eventually right? 8. Hawk Harrelson. How long before the Hawk sits this bunch down and really tears into them 1 by 1. Like men. It's time to stand up. The Hawk won't watch much more of this before he finally snaps. You can hear the meltdown coming. There's no way that won't fire this team up. 9. Mayor Daley. How long before the mayor sits this bunch down and really tears into them 1 by 1. Like men. It's time to stand up. The mayor won't watch much more of this before he finally snaps. You can feel the meltdown coming. There's no way that won't fire this team up. 10. The players. These are stand up guys who realize that they need to turn things around. A big win to keep from getting swept at home by the Cubs will really bring this group together. This is the kind of team bonding moment that hasn't been there since Rowand left. This is the White Sox last stand and I think they got alot more fighting left in them. P.L.E.A.S.E stop it.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 24, 2007 -> 03:16 AM) We missed the playoffs 14 of those 17 years, didn't win a playoff game 15 of the 17, and didn't win a playoff series 16 of the 17. Again, I don't get why that is so great. Don't confuse mediocrity with achievement. I've been watching for 15 years and this is the first time I've ever been truly embarassed. I've been angry, irrational, crazy, happy, everything else....but this season is the first time I've been embarassed. Don't get pissed off at this statement, but if you were born in 1986, you don't know bad baseball as far as the White Sox goes... until this year. Carry on...

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 04:11 AM) And it is only rivaled by the damage done by America's auto companies themselves in the choices they make about which cars to emphasize, and then is only beaten by the damage done by America's disintegrating health care and retirement systems. Again, it's about CHOICE. You can CHOOSE to put money away in retirement, or you can depend on social security (the government). You can choose to better yourself to where health care isn't so much of an issue, or you can depend on some (insert name here) program provided by the government. WHY DOES THE GOVERNMENT HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING FOR YOU?

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 23, 2007 -> 03:07 PM) Slim to nil. A delay, perhaps. That's what they said the day we were there for the softball game. Bastards. Not that I'm bitter or anything.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT... That's for you, Ocho.

QUOTE(CWSOX45 @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 08:54 PM) These idiots don't even have a game plan. The game plan with Zambrano has always been take as many pitches as you can, step out of the box and throw off his timing. When the guy gets pissed and annoyed he loses all poise on the mound. Turn his emotions against him god dammit. That would imply that these guys had half a freaking brain when they went up to the plate.

Why do "big companies" in your mind rip people off? Do you shop at Walmart? (Serious question). If not, why not? If so, why do you?

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 06:56 PM) Don't tell me I hate life. You don't know me. Its not about America giving me a chance. Ive given myself chances. But Some people are never given a chance. Some foriegn countries arent given the chance to suceed because America rams its policies down there throats. I dont cry about whats going on. I dont sit around and armchair QB. But you have, repeatedly, with your posts today. I need to go rip off people and earn my wages, I guess. Bye!

Jenks... right... EXACTLY... It's not a RIGHT. People need healthcare, but that's not THE RIGHT to have health care provided for them.

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 05:29 PM) Well I almost always blame America first. We're an Empire its what we do. We f*** with other nations. I like Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez. I don't apologize for it like most wussy democrats. Oh, so back to my other comments in the other thread I just made... you hate life, and now it's America's fault for not giving you a chance, eh? Until you realize that you have the power to change your circumstances, then don't cry about how unfair America is.

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 06:17 PM) I agree. but acording to KapKomet, you don't have a right for health care and its your own problem. People like him like to back rich medical companies over there own fellow citizens. Its sick. sicko. There are ways to improve this, and why do we have to be dependent on our government to do so? Also, tort reform is a HUGE part of this equation. What about the R & D costs for medicine? Are they just supposed to be sucked up by the companies who make them just out of the goodness of their hearts? If you really want to start throwing s***bomb hyperbole crap around, why even have a capitalistic society at all? Why shouldn't the government just set limits on the amount of money ANY of us make? What's the initiative to be innovative, and make new things? Why can't we all just be robots, all on the same, even, level playing field?

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 05:08 PM) I think that "Blood on the Border" is an excellent book on the subject about Central America. It was written by Roxanne Dunbar Ortix who is a leftist for sure, by she does a pretty good job of staying out of the politics and just reporting the facts. I'm sure there were trade barriers and other such blockades on the USSR. I just happen to find that most of them hurt the people of the country more than the goverment. For example Cuba and Iraq. *sigh*. Ok... Cuba's people could have a LOT of money, if the government chose to allow capitalistic concepts to run through. Fidel likes his money just fine, thank you. So does Hugo Chavez in Venzuela, but I digress. So, as usual, it's the United States' fault that Cuba, Iraq, and the USSR in the Communist times sucked so bad. Nice. QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 05:16 PM) Seriously, how often do you and I get to agree in a thread? Not often. You know, it might surprise you that we have more things in common then you would think. NSS72 knows all my secrets now. Just ask him. I know I throw a lot of hyperbole out there on a lot of topics, but the extremes are almost always somewhere in the middle.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 05:09 PM) Well, the question of course is...was the original problem that we funded the Afghan fighters, or was the problem that we totally ignored any efforts to rebuild that country in the early and mid 90's which allowed Afghanistan to fall into failed state territory? Now THAT was the problem with Afghanistan, IMO.

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 05:13 PM) So people don't have a right to health care, but the medical companies have a right to make billions of dollars and charge insane amounts for the things that people need to survive. The whole "candians gotta wait a long time in line" speach is old. I dont know what fairy tale lines you wait in but in the America I live in you also have to wait in long lines. No you don't, in comparison. Trust me. I've seen it from all sides.

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 04:48 PM) This is no conspiracy theory bulls***. Ronald Reagan helped fund a dirty war in Houndras and Nicaragua. They backed a brutal Hondruas goverment that oppresed its people. He helped fund a contra army by selling arms to Iran and drug traficking. The Contras we're terrorists that were US trained. They raped women and childern. They set off bombs in civilans area. There were a number of people including Reagans national security advisor John Poindexter. That we're charged. For Reagan not to know what was going on down there, he would have to be insane. In the end some 30,000 people we're killed. It has nothing to do with repulicans. Jimmy Carter was guilty in a many ways on the same issue. As far as the USSR goes, what economic polices? Arms race? The falling of the USSR had a little to do with defense spending, but it also had a lot to do with monetary policy of the time and commodities pricing - trade barriers, etc. There were all sorts of things that went into play. And again, there was little in the way of hard core facts on Iran-Contra - there were some things that I disagree with, but the majority of the claims are unfounded.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 04:52 PM) It stops at the point at which your right to those things begins to interfere with the right of others to those same things. The right of everyone to some sort of health care is a right that can be accomplished without significant interference in the right of the huge majority of people to any of those other things, IMO. Really?

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 22, 2007 -> 04:41 PM) I hold it to be self-evident that humans have in fact a right to life and the pursuit of happiness, and that health care is absolutely a necessary part to both of those, and that therefore, men have the ability to request and demand that their government will take actions in that field to protect those rights. That's as good of an answer as I've seen... Nice! I'll come back with some stuff later as the debate unfolds. But... why should the GOVERNMENT be the provider (which is a totally different direction then where I was thinking about this going)?

I'll ask again... why is healthcare treated as a right? I've said this before, and I still haven't gotten a good answer.