Jordan4life_2007

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 03:49 PM) This coming from the guy who praised Gutierrez repeatedly the entire offseason last year. Defense is not a fad. Defense is an integral part of the game. The fact that it is recognized monetarily or not may be a fad at certain times, but that does not make the player less valuable on the field. It means at times, more valuable players are rewarded less monetarily for their defensive skills. Don't confuse the two. This whole Moneyball angle you two are trying to advocate means nothing. No one is saying that there is something wrong with trying to sign undervalued players. What you guys are advocating is ignoring value because it has been ignored at certain times in the past, especially those times when offense was artificially inflated by performance enhancing drugs. The reason defense is even MORE important now is because most of the drugs are out of the game, and so there are more balls in play than there were when the drugs were in the game. I praise him because of his defense and pretty much only his defense. Beltre, other than 2004 and last year, has been nothing to write home about offensively. But he's being paid like a top-10 player in baseball because of the fact, like Balta stated multiple times, that he's a premier defender. That still doesn't really justify the years/money spent on him by the Rangers. I think that was Balta's point. Now I get what you're saying as far as Safeco depressing Beltre's offensive numbers. But look at Agon. He had still been a beast despite playing half his game in a park that favored pitchers. 5-6 years and all that coin, way too risky for me for a guy [beltre] that's only had two great years. And you pretty much made my point for me. I'm not saying defense was completely ignored before the 'roid era hit. But it certainly wasn't valued like it was when it seemed like even average to bad offensive teams were averaging 5 plus runs.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 03:26 PM) PER counts rebounds, steals and blocks, not exactly the greatest indicators of total defensive ability. Yeah, you don't need PER to know that Bruce Bowen was one of the best guard/wing defenders of this era. Don't get me wrong. I like it as far as evaluating a player's offensive contributions. But it's pretty flawed defensively.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 03:25 PM) PK14 was recovering from a broken foot throughout most of the first half of 2003. He broke it down the stretch in 2002 and played through it, and after the 03 season was over he casually told people that it was never really healthy. No I can't find a link for this, the story is just too old. Honestly, I don't remember him ever being hurt. I do remember that he seemed completely void of any confidence at the plate for most of that season. It wasn't until that clutch two-run HR against the Twins in July that he even resembled a major leaguer.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 03:03 PM) There's a couple different currents underlying the whole "Moneyball" movement. Part of it has been the idea that advanced stats can provide new information that can help build winning teams...but the other part of it is using these stats to find hidden value. Adrian Beltre is being paid like an MVP because he's an elite defender and an average bat, and he's getting that money entirely because that's what the advanced stats say about him. That's that half of the moneyball story, but it's not the other half. When everyone is using the same stats and paying huge contracts based on them, then trying to sign players based on those stats is a losing game, because you're not finding value. I totally understand what you're saying. Defense has become the fad, much like OPS in the early 2000's, post steroids. This is fact. Unless you really believe the Mariners gave Franklin Gutierrez 4 years and over 20 million because of his bat.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 02:36 PM) Can I not say basically the same thing about Paul Konerko? No, you can't. Unless you want to ignore Paul's '01, '02, '04 and '06 seasons. Even in what could be considered 'off' years he was still an .840 plus OPS guy in '07 and '09. Outside of '03, where PK for some reason was mind-f***ed, and '08 when he was battling nagging injuries, he's been pretty damn consistent.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 03:08 PM) He's coming back from the Tommy John surgery. When he got to AA last year, he put up a 6.54 ERA and he's pitched 77 innings combined since 2008. He's a ways away still. I know the ERA sucked. But you know what a big proponent I've become of saber stats and pitcher peripherals. Seems to me the only thing holding him back are injuries. But I still hate the trade. I'll admit I didn't go nuts when it first happened. But I really hated parting with Gio a second time. Thanks a lot JC for that damn post of yours. I had forgotten about it. Now I'm mad.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 02:47 PM) Really, DLS in the pen? We'd keep him healthy when the A's couldn't? I know he was hurt in '09. Was he hurt last year? Even if he was a never-ending injury risk he'd still be a nice option to have in your back pocket. His K/9 in 47.1 IP was 13.9. ERA wasn't great but with those K numbers at mostly the AA level you've definitely got a legitimate prospect on your hands. QUOTE (JPN366 @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 02:54 PM) That's why I have that Torii Hunter quote at the bottom. I also knew Gio personally. He should've never been traded. I didn't mind the first Gio trade because he helped net us a HOF. But when we got him back I thought for sure he was here to stay. That first Swisher trade will forever be a black mark on Kenny's resume.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 02:27 PM) Completely off topic, but Buster Olney's blog reminded me of this. How sweet would it be if Nick Swisher never existed, and we had Gio Gonzalez back? We would have a pretty awesome rotation of Peavy-Buehrle-Danks-Jackson-Floyd-Gio. That's 6 very solid starters. Not to mention DLS in the 'pen. And maybe we don't even trade for Jackson with Gonzalez in the fold. Meaning we'd have two quality, cheap and team-controlled pitchers for the next 5-6 years in Gonzalez and Hudson with Sale waiting in the wings. At the very least we'd have some serious trade bait. But let's not go there. That first Swisher trade makes me sick.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 01:58 PM) Trading one of our starters for a reliever is just a horrendous idea at the moment. The bolded is the key. Jake Peavy really f***ed us in the ass trying to be a hero last year.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 01:09 PM) But trading a starting pitcher for relief pitcher whose value is down right now (justified or not) is inherently wrong, no matter cost or team controlled years left. Joba is simply not worth Jackson. If a trade like that is going to even be considered, the Yankees are going to include a hell of a lot more too. Yeah, that's why I edited my post. I'd only consider it if you stuck him in the rotation. They'd have to have a lot of confidence in Coop and his 'magic' ways to make such a deal.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 01:01 PM) We're talking about this year. Quentin and Danks probably won't make more than $12 million combined. Jackson's good as gone next season, so there's no point in freeing up money when he's gone anyways. Yeah, but if you trade for him and he becomes at least competent [obviously you shoot for more], that's a cheap, under team control SP for the next two years after this one. And yes, I only trade for him if you're committed to putting him in the rotation.

Not saying I would trade Jackson for Joba, but for those saying definitely no please keep in mind Chamberlain has 3 more team controlled years before he hits free agency while Jackson has one. And he's A LOT cheaper at the moment. That's a big factor.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 08:06 AM) The first 3 years of Michael Jordan's NBA career, the Bulls weren't .500. I'm guessingg he was in the top 10. You're better than that, DA. I know I've been kinda crazy of late. But not that damn crazy. And you can't even count one of those years because MJ missed 65 games or so.

QUOTE (Pale Sox @ Jan 15, 2011 -> 04:06 AM) I'm writing everything having not read any previous post. But in my mind, what the hell is the difference? Frank f***ing Thomas is a first ballot HOFer. I say that as the ultimate tough guy on HOF ballots. I'm the guy that still says NO to Blyleven and would still say no to MB should be wind up in a similar position. But Frank Thomas is a first ballot hitter if there's ever been one. He's legendary. I'm a Sox fan for life, and I will say this. Sox fans took Frank for granted from almost day-1. it's true. i respect the white sox scepticism, but the bottom line was us underrated Frank. We had the Pujols of our generation, and we never gave him the love he earned. He's the greatest Sox of all-time, and yet he's treated like steve sax. I live and die white sox, but please....give it up for Frank! (as I wrote this whole thing there was a video of Frank, which is gone. So forget my whole intro Were you here in '06 when Frank vs KW broke out? Now keep in mind we were mere months fresh off of winning a championship. And, like, 90 % of the board sided with Frank. The only ones who didn't were still drunk off the World Series kool-aid and KW could've murdered their parents and they would've still sided with him. Some of the criticism Frank received over the years was justified. And even he's admitted as much very recently. But NOBODY has ever questioned the skills. Anybody who has is a fake Sox fan posing as a Cubs fan. In Frank's prime, time stood still when he came to bat. It was just like that 'Frozen Moment' commercial with MJ. Dude was a CLEAN 3-time MVP, Giambi can kiss my ass, during a time when over half the sport had overdosed on PEDs. He's the reason I'm a Sox fan to this day. Frank4motherf***inglife!

QUOTE (J.Reedfan8 @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 11:37 PM) Not to mention Griffin is a superior passer. (one of the best for a big man already as a rookie) Love is better now, Griffin will probably be in the future, hell probably next season. Just a freak talent. Don't know about him being an all-star this season though, even if he is playing like one. Hell LeBron James didn't get in his rookie year. He's having a considerably better season than James did his rookie year. It's not even that close. Blake with his 25th consecutive double/double tonight. My other man-crush, Monta Ellis, just recorded his 20th game this season of 25 or more points with more than two weeks left to go in January. Not bad for a 10th pick in the second round. I know the dream was to get two of James/Wade/Bosh last summer. But from a purely hypothetical fantasy world that I've temporarily created, we'd be a much better team with Griffin/Ellis to pair with Rose. Yes, my fantasy is now over.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 03:20 PM) I believe you're confusing Minnesota with Orlando Naw, he really meant 'magic' as in 'Magic' Johnson.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 01:27 PM) Then start becoming an android. Go open up Excel and stare at numbers all day. Trust me, it will make you less human. lol. Yeah, well, Sabermetrics is your god. It's what you turn to when you need answers in your every day life. 'How do I go about getting this girl'? Simple: 'Just combine a combination of wOBA, WAR and WPA and by george you've got it!' QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 01:27 PM) Screw that. I hope he hits .120 this season. JT is so rare that in it's so hard to root against him. I hate to admit this. But part of me smiled when he hit that bomb off Thornton last year that still has yet to land. It's like if you're going to lose it may as well be to him instead of pretty boy Mauer [and Ozzie looking like a moron didn't hurt].

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 01:06 PM) The reason Qwerty and Kal are so good at it is because they limit their points to facts and data. Some of the rest of us like to mix in too many adjectives and profanities, or make the points of a personal nature from time to time, myself included. Yeah but those two aren't really human. They're more like androids. I have to figure out how to leave the emotion out of it. That's become my problem here and in every day life, actually.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 01:01 PM) Without getting into the specifics, it was just a difference of opinion. Eventually I asked to be just a regular poster and I think it made all parties involved more comfortable. I am happy with it, and I think for the most part the moderating/administration team is happy with it as well. No problem at all. Welcome back to being simply a 'mortal'.

QUOTE (scenario @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 12:58 PM) Nothing wrong with debate. It's the name calling, kidney punching, and eye gouging that are discouraged. Yes, but I've developed a problem with this though. I've forgotten how to express myself without sounding combative. Qwerty is the master at this. But I'll work on it.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 12:43 PM) I'm no longer a moderator so I hesitate to give you any advice on how you should or should not post, but you don't need to withdrawal from a discussion or debate because you want to stay cuddly. I welcome your debate. But we just have to adhere to the rules and guidelines of the site while doing so. Didn't even notice. May I ask why? If you don't wish to share that's not a problem.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 12:26 PM) Well, without being privy to what the true situation is regarding any attempt to sign a Boras client long-term, I can concede that I am not sure what the possibilities might have been. But I think had we offered 5/$78 or so two months ago, it might have gotten done. I agree the signing of Dunn will probably not hurt us in terms of production versus pay, but that doesn't mean it was the best signing to make with our money. The way I see it, you're not looking to make signings that simply don't harm you financially, but you're looking to maximize your dollars committed versus the production you receive based on what is available on the marketplace. I guess if it were my money, I would be willing to take the risk of allocating a total of $27ish million per year this season to Beltre/Lee/Thome, with the the remaining commitment in years and dollars to Beltre over the next 4 years after that, given the current makeup of our roster, especially considering ages and contract commitments, than the $27 million per year over the next two years we have committed to Konerko and Dunn, and the remaining dollars committed in the years following that to Dunn and Konerko. Will just agree to disagree, I guess. I'm trying to be a little bit more cuddly. A week ago this would've been a SERIOUS debate. Not really. But you get my point.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 12:08 PM) It's a matter of the law of diminishing returns though. I think signing Thome would have been a great calculated risk, given his history, especially in the DH role. I then would have gone after Derrick Lee instead of PK, and Adrian Beltre. Basically, Beltre/Lee/Thome rather than Dunn/Konerko. I'm a huge Beltre fan and not even I would want to commit those kinda years/dollars. I can agree with you about Lee over PK. But there is just NO downside/risk, IMO, to the Dunn signing. Without him our off-season is a D minus instead of a B minus, IMO.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 11:42 AM) Free NBA League Pass on DirecTv all next week starting on Monday. Channels 751 - 768 Clippers, Warriors and Thunder games for me next week!

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 14, 2011 -> 11:59 AM) The 300 PA is key here - Thome would then be a part time player. Dunn was not signed as a part time player, which is why you really can't compare the two this way. And Franco was an absolute freak of nature. How many hitters in the modern era have been able to put up better than average offensive numbers playing full time from age 40 up? I wasn't comparing Thome and Dunn at all. See my last response to Shack.