Jordan4life_2007

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 11, 2011 -> 02:18 PM) That's not gonna do them any good this year or until like 2013 at the earliest probably. And that's if the picks work out too. I know. I'm just saying that's pretty crazy.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jan 11, 2011 -> 12:45 PM) and who is going to close for them as well? The team still needs a lot I still can't believe they're looking at 11 draft picks before the third round this year, assuming they don't re-sign Balfour.

Good post. Still not crazy about the Crain and Ohman signings. And I think the Bullpen as a whole is still a big ? But that's bullpens in general. I'm sticking to my B minus grade. Now if you want to include bringing back PK and A.J., which I don't have a problem with, I'm thinking B plus or even A minus. But I never really thought PK was leaving. I just didn't. And I'm not crazy about A.J. at this point. But with Tyler Flowers falling off the face of the earth last year, there was really no other option.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 11, 2011 -> 12:18 PM) Link An 8 foot birthday cake with a crown on it? God I hate that man. I take back my semi-apology post.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jan 11, 2011 -> 12:15 AM) 1. It is beyond stupid to define any player's role on a ballclub based on how he was acquired. 2. There really is no effective dispute to ptatc's facts which you are attempting to respond to. The goal of the Rule-4 draft is to acquire talent, either to help the MLB ballclub or to be used in trade for someone who helps the MLB ballclub. Most of the players drafted do not help an organization, and often they hurt it because you have to pay them money and then play them to find out they suck. How much time and money has Cameron Maybin cost the Marlins? Most of the time players taken in the draft result in failures. Achieving any success at all is worth noting, but acquiring a closer like Sale is an incredible achievement. 3. We may not *need* Sale to be a starter, at all, at any point. Right now we need him in the bullpen because that is arguably the weakest areas of the team. 4. This team will have to be rebuilt after 2011 if we can't win and support a higher payroll. There is really no other option. Alexei, CQ, Danks, and Floyd will get major paydays, and raises go to PK, Peavy, AJ, Dunn, Rios, etc. Beckham will be in his last pre-arb year in 2012. Thornton's deal is up after the year, and he's going to make a lot of money on the open market. We probably won't retain him. Maybe you get the point. If we're forced to rebuild then Sale's role ultimately doesn't matter since we'll likely be left with far too many holes/uncertainties to contend anyway. 5. Please quit the Jackson crap. Hudson overachieved last year. He doesn't have the kind of talent Jackson does. If Jackson leaves after the year we get 2 draft picks, and we'll probably end up taking at least 1 player with those picks who has a ceiling higher than Hudson. And if Jackson helps us win in 2011 and extend the high payroll window a couple years into the future then he has likely done much more than Hudson would have done here as part of a rebuilding effort. 6. Hudson was simply not good enough to get Haren. That deal can't happen. He wasn't good enough for AGon or Prince either. Nor was he good enough for Dunn. What will you do if/when Hudson massively regresses? Will you still rant on about it incessantly? 7. You don't think Jackson is a difference maker because you don't take enough time to actually observe the game you supposedly love so much. Saying Jackson isn't a difference maker (I assume this is because he hasn't had an ace-like year to match his ace-like potential) would be like saying in 2004 that Contreras wasn't a difference maker because he hadn't done that either. Jackson has shut down stuff, and if he's hot he is capable of carrying a team through the playoffs. And if Jackson *had* been fulfilling his potential then guess what? Daniel Hudson isn't enough to acquire him, either. For someone who gets off pointing out how shallow our farm system is and the inadequacies we have in the player department and scouting departments, you sure love to overrate the s*** out of some of our products. You tried to rip me for the Brandon Allen deal and now you're all mad about it. Why? If you were fine with the deal then, why not now? Allen hasn't proven a damn thing anyway. Just one example. 8. You cannot go "all-in" every year, so there is no use dreaming about it. You are really starting to get on my motherf***in' nerves. Now if you have a problem with me come out and say it. Stop being a little b**** with all your long-winded, jumbled together rants. I responded to ptatc in a polite and civil away and here you come with the same pointless drivel that makes people despise your ass. People here might not agree with me all the time. But it's not because I try to be a tough guy p**** over the internet. Now what do you mean it's beyond 'stupid' to define a role based on how a player was acquired? So I shouldn't expect more from the 13th pick in the first round than I would the 13th pick in the 12th round? I don't know what planet you're from. But it's not planet smart. Did I dispute ptatcs data? READ THE POST! I agreed that the draft is a non-exact science. To say we may not need Sale to be a starter at ANY point is ridiculous. Now if you put him in the 'pen for this year and this year only, I won't like it, but I can deal with it. I'm talking long-term. This has ALWAYS been about the long-term. And I don't care about Jackson's 'talent' or his 'stuff'. I care about results. Just like the entire board outside of maybe Wite wanted Javy gone. They're basically mirror images of each other. Jackson's just younger. Hudson overachieved last year because you say so? So we're totally going to ignore his minor league resume and what he did in Arizona because of two bad starts with the White Sox? Nobody said he was Strasburg. But to assume he was just a fluke is retarded. Jackson is not a difference maker and never has been. He's not the worst pitcher that ever lived. But he wasn't worth the cost. That's why he's been traded 4 times in the last 5 years or whatever it's been. And as for Haren, I meant Hudson plus other prospects. And I do think our system as a whole sucks. But that doesn't mean I think every single White Sox prospect that ever lived sucks/sucked. I liked Hudson and was critical of the trade from the moment it went down. EVERYBODY knows this. It wasn't like 'oh s***, Hudson is tearing it up in Arizona, now I hate the trade.' And I admitted I was wrong about the Pena deal. I wanted to see if Coop could, and I despise these words, 'fix 'em.' And he obviously hasn't to this point. And 'all in' is a subjective term. It doesn't have to mean win the World Series every year. It means to be competitive and give yourself a legitimate shot at October every year. And to the mods, I've been here long enough that you should know that I don't intentionally get confrontational like this. But KHP has been f***ing with me for a couple weeks now. Had to let it out. If a suspension is imminent then so be it.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 08:48 PM) I think that if you get a good major league player at any position it is a good (not wasted) pick. I wnet back and looked at all of the 10-15 picks in the MLB drafts from 1997-2004. I didn't go anumore recent because the players still have a chance to develop. Here are the picks: 1997 Jon Garland Chris Enochs Aaron Akin Kyle peterson Brandon Larson Jason Dellaero Garland was the only good MLB player 1998 Carlos Pena Josh McKinley Adam Everett JM Gold Jeff Weaver Clint Johnson Pena,Everett,Weaver the only good MLB 1999 Ben Sheets Ryan Christianson Brett Myers Mike Paradis Ty Howington Jason Stumm Sheets, Myers 2000 Joe Torres Dave Krynzel Joe Borchard Shaun Boyd Beau Hale Chase Utley Utley 2001 Chris Burke Kenny Baugh Mike Jones Casey Kotchman Jake Gautreau Gabe Gross Burke, maybe Kotchman and Gross 2002 Drew Myers Jeremy Hermedia Joe Saunders Khalil Greene Russ Adams Scott Kazmir Good draft all bit Myers 2003 Ian Stewart Micheal aubrey Lastings Milledge Aaron Hill Ryan Wagner Brian Anderson Stewart, Hill, Wagner 2004 Thomas diamond Neil Walker Jered Weaver Bill Bray Billy Butler Stephen Drew Walker,Weaver, mayber Butler and Drew It looks to me like from picks 10-15 teams are lucky to get good contributing players. I'll take Sale being good whther it's in the pen or starting. If he's good it will not be a wasted pick. Ptatc, that's some solid date you provided. But you're arguing something that I don't dispute. I realize what a non-exact science the MLB draft is. That's not really my point. Now look at our current situation with our starting pitching. We've got Peavy, who let's face it, will be a major injury risk from now through the end of his contract. We've got Buehrle, who's a FA after this year. We've got Jackson, who will also be a FA after next year and his agent is that Boras guy that we seem to despise. We've got Danks, who's got only got two arb years left and appears to be determined to test the FA market [hello Yankees]. We've got NOTHING in the minors in terms of SP prospects that we could at least have some hope of stepping in if need be for 2012 or 2013. We NEED Sale to be a starter. We don't have the luxury of saying 'oh well, if worse comes to worse we can stick him in the 'pen.' We're not the Rays. Who can trade a Matt Garza and not really impede their long-term pitching situation in the least. That's why the Hudson trade drove/drives me so crazy. It just wasn't a smart baseball move short or long-term. Edwin Jackson is not a difference maker. Now you go out and trade Hudson or whatever for a Dan Haren? That's a totally different story. You don't give up 6 years of a cheap Hudson for a year and two months of Jackson, especially when his agent is someone we refuse to negotiate with. Now some fans have totally adopted this 'all-in' phenomenon and only care about 2011. Well, I'm not that way. Not too many people were thinking about 2005 when we were trotting out guys like Andy Gonzalez, Jerry Owens, Luis Terrerro, Andy Sisco and Ryan Bukvich and losing 90 games in 2007. I want to go 'all-in' every year, or close to every year.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 06:12 PM) 6 man rotation. I don't think it'll hurt, especially since Peavy's a question mark at this point and Gavin usually ends up hurting himself come September. I think you have him start as the 5th guy in the rotation and then assess the situation when Peavy comes back. If the bullpen is doing well and the rotation is doing well, then do whatever you want with Sale. But if one of the areas needs help, you're gonna have to use him somewhere on the team. I'll never buy a 6 man rotation idea with this team again after the McCarthy lie in 2006.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 06:05 PM) What's wrong with Sale starting the season as the 5th starter? I don't really care what Sale does this year, as long as he's on the team. The team needs him in 2011, they don't have the luxury to have him dominate AAA for a month or two. Then boot him to the 'pen as soon as Peavy comes back? I don't like that notion all that much. And I know this would be a nice problem to have, but what if he does fairly well as a starter initially? Doesn't really send a good message to the kid to banish him to the 'pen, IMO. Then he's got to re-adjust mid-season. I just don't like it.

I want him to start in AAA. As a fan I'm not looking at just 2011. I want a cheap/productive Sale for the next 6 years. Those saying that the only thing that matters is 2011 are probably the same people that said they would never complain about a thing ever again in baseball life after we won the WS. And I think we all know by now that was a damn lie. If you're gonna start him off in the 'pen, keep him there. At least for this year. I do not want to see him dicked around all year. And they'll probably end up playing the Brandon McCarthy card anyway even if we did need an emergency starter.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 05:53 PM) If Hamilton and Cruz stay healthy. Yeah, and Kinsler. He's turning into Nick Johnson.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 05:29 PM) Probably because they wanted to sign Beltre. I'm also confident Thome won't make more than what Vlad made last year. The Rangers are going to score them some runs.

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 05:26 PM) Yeah, it was easy to see they were the suck. They probably wouldn't be as bad if LeBron were on the team and just injured because he gave them confidence. At the same time, if you didn't think this was a bad team, I don't know what to tell you. I don't hate or blame LeBron for leaving. I do dislike the fashion he did it in though. That was kinda my point. The whole Decision thing and that entire circus and all the full-blown retarded things he's said this year are unforgivable. But he was going to get hate no matter what he did outside of staying in Cleveland. He should've been 'loyal' is what so many had said. Yes, we knew the Cavs would take a big hit. But we're lookin' at 65 losses or so. That is mind-blowing that one player meant THAT much. The Bulls certainly didn't fall apart when MJ left the first time. The Lakers were still a playoff team for the next two years after Magic retired. The Celtics made the playoffs the year after Bird retired. This is a truly historic collapse.

I think we all kinda owe LeBron at least a semi-apology. The Cavs are 1-18 since December 2nd. They are f***ing awful. My goodness.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 09:39 AM) I still disagree. If relievers are a "dime a dozen" as you said, then all bullpens should be good. You make it sound like it'a easy to find good relievers. If it is then every team should have a good pen. Give me your detailed post as to why good relievers are a dime a dozen but why not every team has a good bullpen. No, I didn't. If you look back at that post I said closers were a dime a dozen. It's actually harder to find consistent middle relief/set-up guys then a guy to get the last three outs of a game. But that's what bullpens are or have evolved into. I don't ever remember bullpens being so inconsistent when I was just starting out as a baseball fan. Then again I was young so whatever. But the last 7 years or so have been ridiculous. Basically, if you're going to draft a reliever or a guy who projects to be a reliever in the first round, you're doing so to make him a closer. The Red Sox didn't draft Daniel Bard to make him a 6th/7th inning guy. It was to eventually supplant Papelbon. Who I think is gone after next year. You find other aspects of a bullpen through other avenues. Whether it be FA signings, which I despise, amateur FA signings or much later on in the draft or through trades. And this is obviously no easy task. Which is why despite having a competent, good or even great closer doesn't assure you of having a good to great bullpen.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 09:06 AM) Because there's more to having a great bullpen than having someone to close games? I just checked the numbers. There were 29 players in MLB with 20 or more saves last year. Know who had the worst ERA out of all of them? Bobby Jenks. Oh sure, some teams shuffled a player into and out of the closers spot, and there were closers like Dotel and Capps who were traded to bolster a team's middle relief, but think about that...there were 28 other pitchers in MLB who had 20 or more saves...all of whom had better ERA's than Bobby Jenks. You just saved me a detailed post. Thanks.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 08:54 AM) I'm not in love with the moves we made either, but come on, you don't think you're using a little bit of overkill here? Just seems like you're surprised that you're being challenged so much...well that's what happens when you take the extreme minority opinion and are vocal about it, to boot. I don't have any problem with you voicing your opinion - heck, contrasting/conflicting opinions are what make message boards great for debate and discussion. But it just seems like you're shocked that people are fighting you tooth and nail about it, and so your frustration with that is carrying over into your position. I, for one, hope you keep up with the criticism, because it keeps those of us wearing the White Sox-colored glasses in check; just don't take it so personally... Look, I been posting here since July of '03. I know my join date says February '04 but that's only because I forgot the password to my original name and had to create another one. I was just like Rowand44, Soxace and jphat before he went crazy. Just optimistic about EVERYTHING. Then you got somebody like fathom, who I think is one of the best posters around, who's been a 'pessimist' since day one, but that's OK because it's expected from him. 2005 changed the game for me. I cherish that year like no other. But I was never one of those 'I don't care what happens from this point on because we finally won it all' guys. It's like getting your first piece of ass. You want it over and over and over again. Imo, this franchise deserves a lot of criticism for not being able to build off that amazing 2005 season. The city was ours for the taking. And we have not taken advantage. That doesn't mean I hate EVERY move we make. I loved the Peavy trade and the Dunn signing. And there's a lot of moves we've made that I've despised. Do I go a little overboard at times? Maybe. But so what? What's the big deal? Ranger makes me want to kill small animals at times with his homerism. But I respect his opinion and don't go apes*** when I don't agree with him. This all started when I gave the Sox off-season grade a B minus and I got anally violated. That's what made me mad.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 06:04 AM) If Gordon Beckham were to become merely an average to above average second baseman, would you not at least be slightly disappointed? It is the same with Sale. As I said in my post, I would gladly take some value for the pick if Sale were to end up in the pen over having no value for the pick at all if he turned into a AAA player. I get what you're saying here. Little different in Beckham's case. I will never diss the Sox for taking Beckham. If he flops then hell, he just wasn't that good. Agree completely here.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 08:43 PM) Not if he turns out to be a really, really good reliever or closer. Good relievers aren't as easy to come by as you're making it sound. They're actually quite the opposite. 3E8's post is not a "loser attitude", it's a realistic attitude. No team goes into the draft throwing darts because they're conceding that they're first pick will probably stink. But that doesn't mean they are unaware of the fact that it's probable the player won't pan out. Never said they were easy to come by. This is all about efficiency. And it's not efficient from a baseball standpoint to invest such a high pick on a guy that ultimately ends up a reliever, no matter how good. Scott Shields was one of the most dominant set-up guys of the last decade and he was a 38th round pick. And please don't tell me you think Sale has a good chance to be as good as Shields, who was absolutely filthy in his prime. Octavio Dotel, Latroy Hawkins, Authur Rhodes and a s***load of other guys that I can't think of off the top of my head were either later round picks or amateur FA signings [i'm talking strictly set-up guys here]. Don't even get me started on closers. They're a dime a dozen. Aside from Rivera, of course.

QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 10:03 PM) Within reason, what the hell did you want them to do that they didn't do? Already answered that in is the Kenny done thread. Not doing it here. I've already apologized to Tex and I'm not turning this thread into the J4L hates life soap opera.

QUOTE (qwerty @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 04:17 AM) The sox are gonna do whatever they see best suited to help the team win. They will do whatever is best for this season with sale, the one after that, and so on. I feel several times more confident when we have an actual option (sale) when someone is out in the rotation... rather than a never ending revolving door. Sounds familar no? Sucks yes? Let me say before hand the following i believe never occurred because it would have be the wrong way to go about things. Thankfully kenny williams is a smart man to not make such a gaffe. Buehrle was not going anywher, clearly peavy was not gonna get moved, the sox acquired jackson because they have liked him for years. The only two real options we had to move, danks and floyd, would have led to the following... Let's think here hypothetically, jackson, floyd, danks, peavy, and buehrle are all healthy, though one got moved in the off-season. Since danks and floyd were the only realistic options... we will say one of them got moved. Now remember, hypothetically speaking still, the sox did this to start sale and get the most worth out of him. Someone gets hurt... months on end... better yet... season ending... now who steps in to replace one of those starters? It's not as simple as saying '' with the money saved via the starting pitching trade... we picked up a back of the rotation starter as insurance''. That is not a guarantee. Not a ton of money would have been saved if either floyd or danks were moved. Rather minimal actually in the grand scheme of things. So if we went that route... we would need another capable starter, not aaaa caliber pitchers as our insurance policy. This would also mean no sale in the pen, which would then mean we would have most definitely needed to acquire another reliever (i personally still think we need another good one... in our current state) to fill his void. So the five million or so (would be less of course considering we would be getting players in return) would have to be used on two spots (three if you are worried about the lack of pop off the bench) while ultimately losing depth starting pitching wise. Even if it didn't end up being depth, due to them picking up a starter, the skill level would be drastically different, for the worse What sale has to gain by starting this very season is nothing. The sox team, and what best benefits them, this should be the only concern. It's not just my mindset, appears to be kenny's also. They don't have to be greedy and push the issue, take what you can get, while you can get it. I get the vibe that some would rather have sale become nothing at all if he doesn't end up a starter. Would that be disappointing? Yes, most likely unless he became absolutely elite out of the pen. Would i complain that is was the worst pick and choice of all time? No. If you can draft a player in the first round, hell any round, and they end up contributing for the positive on the major league deal, well you struck it rich. I think we are very fortunate having sale as an option to start if an injury occurs, most teams can't just slip in a pitcher like him at will. I'm almost certain sale will be in the rotation by 2012, since there will potentially be two open spots for his taking. Patience is the companion of wisdom. Once again, good post, qwerty. I just can't help but go back to 2006 with Brandon McCarthy. We all remember how he was supposed to be that '6th' starter and insurance in case somebody got hurt. Now ultimately nobody got hurt. But wasn't it clear that a Freddy Garcia, a guy that lost like 5 miles off his fastball [Kalapse's flamethrower Freddy sig is the stuff of legend] could've used a break or when Mark Buehrle was doing his best Todd Ritchie impression during the second half of that season that he could've used a rest? It was brought up multiple times in the papers and in the media that maybe Brandon should slide into the rotation and give somebody a break. I distinctly remember both Ozzie and Cooper saying no way they would do that because Brandon's arm was not stretched out enough to start. So what was all the 6th starter and insurance s*** about in the first place? Now I'm not saying that's exactly what would happen with Sale. But I am skeptical. And they both have similar frames [basically they could stand to spend an entire week at a buffet]. And neither had/have ideal deliveries. Now would it be a tragedy if Sale ultimately ends up a reliever for a year? Not really. As long as it's a year. It's certainly not maximizing a first round pick otherwise. Especially a 13th pick. I just don't like to hear 'well, our first round picks usually suck anyway, so anything we can get out of Sale would be gravy.' I'll never accept that. I just can't off the top of my head think of many situations where a young guy that's always started spent an entire year in the bullpen and then became a quality starter the next year. I guess Dempster did it at a much older age. And I think a lot of people seem to be oblivious to the likelyhood that Sale is going to go through growing pains regardless. Like he's coming to become a Thornton clone overnight. Obviously he's a position player, but we all saw what happened to Beckham. Too much is being made of 20 innings or whatever it was he pitched in last year.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 12:13 AM) So what exactly does count, J4L? Surely the Rockies should get no credit for CarGo...since he wasn't part of their system... Come on...you're being way too defensive here... Defensive my ass. I'm getting sick of this s***. This place is turning into WSI right before my eyes. I think the Sox have had a good but not great offseason. And I'm getting chastised for it. It's my opinion. I have not gotten confrontational with anybody that thinks the Sox have had a GREAT offseason.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 10, 2011 -> 12:12 AM) You've just been on a huge negative streak J4L. It just seems like everything is pissing you off, not you not-kissing-White-Sox-ass. The debate for Santos being a product of the system is he was groomed as a pitcher solely by the White Sox. But man, it's gotten to the point where I don't even think acquiring Carlos Gonzalez and Mike Stanton would make you happy because CarGo's on a long deal and Stanton will only be a sophomore next year. Now I want you to google the Adam Dunn acquisition thread and read my posts in that thread. It shouldn't be too hard to find since it was so recent. And then tell me I just hate just to hate. Matter a fact I'll find it myself.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 08:56 PM) Give it a f***ing rest already. Sale has the ability to be an elite closer. Take all your WAR crap and throw it out the f***ing window. Chris Sale shortens a baseball game. Closers who are that great at what they do cost draft picks and lots of money when you sign them through FA. Having a Chris Sale basically for free for 3 years and then well below market for the next three is a goddamned beautiful thing and if other teams thought he could do what he has done with us then he probably would have been drafted HIGHER. This isn't 1-pitch Aaron Poreda we're talking about. Chris Sale is a very special pitcher. In fact if Sale were on another team and we passed on him to take someone else I'm almost certain you'd b**** about us not taking Sale. I remember how in one of your typical ball-washing threads about young players you were ranting about Feliz - but Sale is at LEAST on that level if not better. If Sale played for the Cleveland Indians or the Houston Astros or whatever you'd have a thread in Talking Baseball about what a stud he is and how dumb we are for not drafting him. Well good god damn. Sale has the ability to be an elite closer because KHP says so. Chris Sale is a very special pitcher? Wow. I'm totally stumped. How do I respond to that? Nobody compared Chris Sale to Aaron Poreda. So you can take that bulls*** somewhere else. I've explained myself over and over again regarding this topic. And I don't give a f*** who agrees or disagrees. YOU DO NOT DRAFT A RELIEVER WITH THE 13TH PICK! If you remember, and I'm sure you don't, I created a thread last year begging KW NOT to trade Chris Sale because I liked him so much. But not because I wanted a set-up man or closer. Because I wanted a number 1 or 2 type starter. Is that too much to ask? I don't know and I don't care. In sports, and life in general, you shoot for the stars. Not settle for scraps. And for the 548767843278458432 time. I don't have a problem with the pick IF he's going to be a starter. But like I said before, there were questions about his frame, durability and delivery BEFORE the draft. Now if the Sox scouts or Lauman or whatever drafted him with the idea of will try him as a starter but if worse comes to worse will make him a reliever then they f***ED UP. You can agree or disagree. I really don't care. You're delusional and have somehow created an imaginary J4L that you just feel like arguing with. I'm not doing this anymore. FOR THE LAST f***ING TIME! If Sale ultimately ends up as a reliever then it was a WASTE of a 13th pick. A third or fourth round pick? No problem. Maybe even a second round pick. I don't give a f*** if you agree with me. I'll play the role of Soxtalk villain. I really don't care. I will speak my mind no matter what the consensus is.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 07:24 PM) You've been going downhill with your posting as of late, but this is just ridiculous. The White Sox were the first team to come to Santos and tell them they wanted him to pitch. They worked with him and made mechanical tweaks of him and they deserve absolutely all of the credit. Just like they deserve the credit for guys like Thorton. Of course Santos and Thorty also deserve credit. And wtf is that supposed to mean? Has my spelling gotten worse? Has my grammar fallen off? Has my VO-CAB-U-LARY taken a hit? Oh, I know. I don't kiss the White Sox collective asses every two seconds. Santos was not a product of the system. What are we debating? This is fact. Now I give them props for being able to, at least for 1 year, get decent production out of him. Thornton was 5 years ago. Again, I give them props for that and have for years. But the train doesn't come to a halt because of a nice move you made five years ago.

QUOTE (qwerty @ Jan 9, 2011 -> 03:43 PM) If a 22 year old, which sale will be by the time the season starts, can't handle a little bouncing around between the rotation and the bullpen, well then i just don't think he is suited for the major leagues. Think about it, sale has very limited mileage on his arm. If anyone were able to do it, it seems like he would be capable. It's not the most uncommon thing to ease someone into the league this way. A perfect example (though in another league talent wise) would be johan santana. Seems like he did just fine to me. He is not the first, last, or only one to go this route. Also, it would be an entirely different scenario if people were suggesting to start him in the pen, and then flip him to the rotation. Going from starting to relieving... would likely be a welcomed relief (haiamsofunny) to sale... rather than the other way around. Going from the pen to the rotation on the drop of a hat... that's when things get worrisome more so. If sale were to get injured, it would be because of how he throws the baseball, rather than the role he is throwing it in. In regards to santos, regression to the norm is to be expected, and since i consider myself to be a realist, i'll go with logic on this one. Do i want that? Doubtful. I want him to do even better than last season. What you want in life, and what you get, are two different things entirely. I've said this about 4747634734 times in the last year or so, POST MORE! I need to learn to be like you or something. Now I could've typed everything you said word for word and I'm Osama Bin Laden [yes, slight exaggeration]. But let me stop whining now.