Marty34

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 03:22 PM) The entire situation is a giant Catch-22. The only thing the front office can do from this point forward, and from every point forward after that, is to put the best product on the field they can while also taking into consideration the future of the organization. That's what they do. They shouldn't be in the middle. They should have either added $25-$30M to the 2013 payroll or cut payroll setting up for 2014 and beyond.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 03:20 PM) That isn't even close to what was said. Sure it is. The Sox problem is a fickel fan base, not talent evaluation.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 03:09 PM) Read back through the thread. I don't think the Sox fans being fickel should have anything to do with the team the front office fields. If it does, that just shows you the problem lies with ownership.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 03:00 PM) I am still waiting for the quote that directly links fan behavior to losing from someone in the organization. I can't find the quote. You are right. Getting back to your original post, how does Sox fans being fickel effect the product the front office puts on the field?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 02:52 PM) How is that blaming fans for failure? There are ways to improve a team without signing a free agent to a $50M contract. Draft better.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 02:49 PM) Blame for the organizational failure? I'd like to see some proof where the Sox blame the fans for not winning. How many times have we heard KW say, can't spend a dollar when you only have 50 cents?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 02:42 PM) 5 division titles and 1 world series title is the best ownership run since Charles Comiskey. 30 years, 5 postseason appearances and 1 title. Not good enough to blame the fans for the organization's failure as they so often do.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 01:21 PM) It is easy to sit up and take shots like that when you aren't the one managing the budget. Fortunately Kenny, Rick, Jerry and company do consider the effects on the fan base. Sox fans are notorious fickle. Their history proves that. By the same token, history isn't very kind to Chairman Reinsdorf's ownership tenure.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 9, 2013 -> 12:10 PM) When the White Sox have a 1st baseman in his late 30's, any time he struggles, it's a sign he's getting old and doesn't even belong in the upper half of the order. When the Tigers sign an OF in his late 30's, he's going to dominate. The difference is Hunter is not being counted on to be a primary part of the Tigers offense the way Konerko is for the Sox offense. If Konerko tanks, so does the Sox offense.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 8, 2013 -> 12:25 PM) Based on the fact that Marty always assumes everything goes wrong for the Sox. Hahn doesn't sound like he's counting on Danks to be ready by Opening Day. He's a lot closer to the situation than anyone posting on Soxtalk.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 8, 2013 -> 12:24 PM) For this team to struggle to score runs, you need more than a net drop, you need an implosion from one or more of those guys. You need 2011 Dunn and Rios. If that happens, this team will struggle to score runs. Konerko and Dunn's 2nd half OPS's were .772 and .729 respectively. Huge red flag for the 2013 offense for me.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jan 8, 2013 -> 11:15 AM) Based on what? Time lost from injury and rehab? I am betting Danks will be there at the beginning of the season, but if it is cold weather I have no problem with him being kept out a bit longer. Based on Hahn's comments and the fact that they have him locked up for four more years, I think they are going to be extra cautious with his return. I will be surprised if he is on the Opening Day roster.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 8, 2013 -> 09:11 AM) The SoxTalk crowd, whenever we do the poll in Spring Training, is actually amazingly good at predicting the season. The top of the bell curve is usually really close, at least the last few years. Better than a lot of the professional projections have been. 77 wins seems far too low to me. This was an 85 win team... now getting back what was supposed to be its best starting pitcher, and with Sale and Q matured a year... a bullpen more loaded with rookies than any in baseball in years has had a chance to grow up... the team now has a 3B that won't (likely) be a black hole for the first half of the season... Viciedo and Flowers with a chance to grow into their roles. On the downside, there is almost no way the Sox get production at C anything like what AJ had in 2012... and Rios is highly unlikely to repeat his 2012, though his mechanical changes meant he was more consistent through the year, so a big drop isn't likely... and then you have the arm health questions about Danks and Sale. Assuming Danks can get back to being somewhat close to his healthy numbers, and Sale/Q handle the innings load OK... this team should be better than last year, not worse. So go up from 85, instead of down. If healthy becomes an issue for multiple SP's, then yeah, 77 wins is a good guess, or maybe worse. Best case scenario for the pitching aside, this team is going to have difficulty scoring. What do you expect from Konerko, Dunn, and Viciedo? I see a net drop from last year even if Viciedo improves. And as you mentioned, Flowers isn't going to put up 2012 AJ numbers. I don't see improvements from Keppinger, Ramirez, and Beckham (if they happen) being enough to offset the declines.

Take Victor Martinez over Danks in the "Who is Likeliest to Return From Injury Pool."

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 7, 2013 -> 07:09 PM) Maybe so, but we got out of Quintana some pretty similar production that one could have expected from John Danks, Dunn hit 40 home runs, and I don't see PK improving on his '12 numbers a whole lot this season. Hard to expect Sale and Peavy to replicate '12, let alone improve on it in '13, if you ask me. Saw a projection that had the Sox as a 77 win team right now. I think that's a fair assessment.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 7, 2013 -> 01:22 PM) Now you get it. Fans run before a full rebuild even starts, thus making a real rebuild impossible. Even the slightest possibility of a rebuild starts bringing out the White Flag crap. There's no rebuilding going on. Why should fans be excited about bringing last years team back?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 7, 2013 -> 01:01 PM) If that were the case, they would be excited about the rebuilding. They aren't, which is why people started throwing "White Flag" right away. What rebuilding?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 7, 2013 -> 12:03 PM) People freaked out a couple of years back with the deadline deals, and the same last winter when we traded players away. Sox fans are notorious front runners. Sox fans get tired of the organization saying "you can't spend a dollar when you only have 50 cents." It's not about payroll, its about performance and 1 playoff appearance in 7 years isn't good enough.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 7, 2013 -> 10:18 AM) So true. The White Sox have much more to consider than whether we are the best or worst. Half of the problem is the meatball Sox fan contingent out there who starts screaming "White Flag" at any deal where we move salary. If Sox fans were loyal enough to stick around during a sell-off that would change things, but Sox management has to consider keeping people going to the ballpark when deciding who they can sell off because it affects their future revenues. The problem is the Sox expensive players have little-to-no trade value. I don't think fans would stop coming to the ballpark if they were somehow able to rid themselves of Dunn and Danks.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 5, 2013 -> 02:05 PM) More personal attacks? I don't understand.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 5, 2013 -> 12:40 PM) And yet somehow you say that it's more likely that this team will be 15 games worse than 5 games better. I guess the only thing I can take from this is that you're planning to assassinate the entire starting pitching staff. What about the Verducci effect on Sale that Ginger Kid brought up?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 5, 2013 -> 12:09 PM) Great. You did exactly what I just said. You listed a couple of the possible bad things that could happen...assumed that they were very likely to do so, and then assumed that nothing else would go right to offset those things. No improvement from the bullpen, no improvement from the other starters thanks to additional rotation depth, no help from Quintana being there, no help from better defense at 3b, etc. List the bad things, assume they'll happen, and assert that none of the possible good things that could offset them will happen. You just repeated the script I laid out. I'm assuming improvement from the pen.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 5, 2013 -> 11:52 AM) Yes. And the team wound up winning 85 games with a similar roster, which is now more potent on paper since it no longer has the gaping hole at 3b and since we have some idea of which bullpen rookies we can trust. That team had a ton of things go wrong with it and won 85 games. Danks got hurt. Morel was terrible for 2 months because of injury. Youkilis put up a sub -.350 OBP. Dunn could barely hit .200. They ran through to their 10th starting pitcher for a game because no one else was a plausible option. They gave innings to guys like Septimo to see what they could do. Reed was exhausted in the 2nd half. Quintana was exhausted in the 2nd half. Sale was exhausted around the AS break. Ramirez had a really bad season for him. The natural thing to do, with a similar roster, would be to recalibrate to 85 as a starting point, since that's what happened last year. For them to be 15 games worse, not only those kind of things would have to happen, but a whole lot more would have to happen. For them to be 3-4 games better...that same list of things could happen, except Danks not getting hurt and Keppinger being not the worst 3b in history. Sale and Peavy's workloads last year are reason's for pause when thinking this team can win 90 games as well as Konerko's second half. In my opinion for the Sox to have a chance to contend, Sale and Peavy have to equal last year's performances and Danks has to have a career best season as I believe the offense is likely to regress. I have a difficult time seeing that happening.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 5, 2013 -> 11:19 AM) Going in to last season, the White Sox had the 9th youngest roster in the league. And with Pierzynski swapping for Flowers and continuing addition of Youth in the pen, they have not gotten much older on average either. Maybe a little bit because Wise is the backup OF, but that's about it. This is actually a great example of the kind of pessimistic garbage I keep crapping on. You come up with a list of things that could go right and a list of things that could go wrong. Danks being healthy/struggling again, Sale winning the Cy Young/putting up an ERA of 5 by being tired, Konerko continuing his reliability/getting hurt. For no reason, or at least none that is ever explained, it's then asserted that the bad ones are > 3 times more likely to happen than the good ones. Great example. Perfect actually. The bad things are much more likely to happen...because they're the bad things. You had the team losing 90 games last offseason. now you are anti-pessimism?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 5, 2013 -> 10:51 AM) So it's more likely that this team will be 15 games worse than 5 games better? There you go again. Your post is in line with the mods. Yes, I believe this team has a better chance to lose 90 than to win 90 because of age/health issues.