Marty34

The Sox have no debt to payoff. They could afford their highest payroll.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 14, 2013 -> 09:51 AM) Really? They drew 2 million fans, which was 9th in the AL. That's not a good number, but consider that the 5 teams below them - Tampa Bay (worst stadium in an impossible location), Cleveland (terrible), Oakland (terrible stadium), Seattle (terrible team), and Kansas City (terrible team, mediocre stadium, AND they hosted the All-Star game). The Blue Jays were 8th with 2.1 million. The rest are teams that generally draw well, have new stadiums, are good, or some combination of those 3. I think the Sox get the attendance they deserve. SS2K5 believes otherwise

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 14, 2013 -> 09:38 AM) History shows two completely different results, or do you have some proof this time? The White Sox are my proof.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 14, 2013 -> 08:16 AM) There are very few examples of being successful in a full rebuild anyway. Most franchises just enter a cycle of repeated rebuilds and decimate their fan base. You decimate a fan base by repeatedly not making the postseason whether in a rebuild or by "going for it".

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jan 12, 2013 -> 08:56 AM) I am not sure why people think it is easy for Rick Hahn to make moves. 1) We don't have much money to play with in free agency, so he really can't acquire anyway using that method. 2) We don't have a deep minor league system to deal for a proven veteran. 3) We don't really have that many valuable assets on the ML team. We have old veterans making a lot of dough who are not that attractive for other organization and we don't really have the young talent that teams pine over. Pretty much hits the nail on the head.

QUOTE (YASNY @ Jan 12, 2013 -> 02:11 AM) As crappy as your arguments and waffling has been in this thread, I have kept my opinions to myself because you seem to think the mods/admins are picking on you for some reason other than your irrational, knee-jerk responses. But you sir, have reached a new low as this retort is one of the most condescending, rude remarks that I have seen on Soxtalk in recent memory. I apologize for the remark.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 03:09 PM) Okay, let's go back a step. Why do you think the Sox fanbase is more of a sleeping giant than some average fanbase? Because the Sox fan base is a subset of a metropolitan area with 8M people in it. That's a ton of people to draw from.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 02:29 PM) Why do you think that? Please be specific with what steps ownership could take to wake the sleeping giant. "Winning" is not specific enough, nor is "sustained success". You're not going to accomplish it if you don't first build a team that has sustained success.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 11:42 AM) Reinsdorf's long-term vision I cannot necessarily argue with, as results have been solid but not stellar, but I am not convinced that there is a persistent top-down problem. It's purely a speculative matter either way. There is a problem that the plan the Sox have to "win a championship" is too expensive for them to execute. They either need to change the plan or improve the revenues. Instead of doing either, they stay in the middle.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 12:24 PM) This thread is awesome, for me its post post, and then a bunch of ignored ones followed by frustrated responses. Thanks for the update. Next time we'll ask.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 11:35 AM) As far as the fan base/attendance argument, short of going to the commissioner and demanding the Cubs be moved to another city, there's not a lot the Sox can do to drastically improve attendance. Are you saying longterm? Current ownership is very conservative, small risk/small reward type. I believe the Sox are a sleeping giant that a new owner with fresh ideas and who builds a team that has "sustained success", would put 32-33,000 in the seats every night.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 11:52 AM) You obviously don't. The team was in the top 2 or 3 in wins for about a 15 year stretch. I'll post it again, if it really is so miserable for you, find a new hobby. You actually might become happy. Why do you turn things personal when someone disagrees with you?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 11:37 AM) One that is willing to take a bath every year so you might be happy? Good luck with that. White Sox fans wouldn't go to games because the seats were blue. Then they wouldn't go because the team wasn't winning enough, then they get their green seats and have a team in first place and tickets are too expensive. 2013 they will have affordable tickets, green seats and a team that should be decent. We will see what happens This is media brainwashing, particularly on the SCORE. "The Sox fan doesn't appreciate all that Chairman Reinsdorf has given him."

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 11:28 AM) It has nothing to do with the media. I'm fully capable of looking up historical attendance and win totals on my own and calculating that Sox attendance falls well below that of several teams who have won significantly less. I believe that ownership gives management a budget that is partly based on attendance and that management does the best it can to field a winning team based on that budget. I don't for a second believe that ownership is putting one dollar less into payroll than they are capable of. I say it's time for a new owner then. One that has a better plan for "sustained success" given the constraints of the revenue streams or an owner that has deeper pockets.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 11:26 AM) If fans aren't showing up, isn't it a sign fans are demanding more out of ownership? Right, but Sox fans are so wrapped up in attendance that they blame their fellow fan for not going. Attendance is what it is, no excuse not to win.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 11:03 AM) Well, that's your opinion, but teams with fewer total wins, postseason appearances, and WS wins, have had better attendance in the last 20 years, so by comparison, Sox fans are spoiled. I think it's strange that Sox fans don't demand more from ownership. Instead they blame their fellow fan. It must be they are still feeling the effect of being beaten over the head for years by the media with "attendance problems."

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 10:58 AM) Look at the Sox ranks in MLB in wins and in attendance over the last 15-20 years. That's pretty much proof right there. 20 years, 4 post seasons and 1 World Series. Not enough to have a rabid fan base.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 11, 2013 -> 10:42 AM) Links? As soon as I see proof that Sox fans are spoiled.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jan 10, 2013 -> 08:50 PM) Sox fans are so spoiled. They don't support competitive teams. There are many fan bases that would be thrilled for the winning records that the team has put up in the last 30 years. FYI - Winning percentage in A.L. history: Yankees #1 Red Sox Indians Tigers White Sox #5 Sox fans are not spoiled, you're listening too much to the media in this town. They have not been given a reason to better support their team over the last 30 years. Ownership is getting the fan support their record deserves.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2013 -> 06:17 PM) How about the fifteen years without any kind of post season appearance. That disqualifies them in your book. What are you talking about? They were sold a few times during that period.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2013 -> 05:41 PM) Anything other than just words and rumor. I was told by a member of the organization.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jan 10, 2013 -> 05:25 PM) That is simply not an accurate characterization of what you said. A) You said you think Reinsdorf needs to go because of lack of historical performance. B) Balta said other teams are in similar or worse historical situations that might still be considered decent. C) Your response was that Balta must therefore be happy with Reinsdorf. Point C is the logical leap that is nonsensical and disingenuous. There are plenty of other positions Balta could take, but you have painted him into the one that most extremely opposes your position. This is an example of the type of argumentation that irritates people, and part of why much of the board argues with you so vehemently. EDIT: Sorry to hijack the thread, I just thought that needed to be stated. He brought up the Rangers bankruptcy, I guess as a defense of current ownership. If that's where he is setting the bar he has to be ok with ownership.

Rebuild by getting other teams prospects and by getting the payroll down, not necessarily through the draft. Hopefully you can get something for Peavy and Rios at the trade deadline if the Sox aren't in it. It's a tough road, but so is sticking in the middle.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jan 10, 2013 -> 04:06 PM) Marty, I hope this isn't construed as a personal attack, just a critique of your argument style, but you tend to do this quite frequently: You'll set up camp on an extreme side of an argument, present extremely contestable arguments, then when people disagree with your assessment, presume that they must be supporting the extreme opposite of your position. There is plenty of room to be somewhat unhappy with ownership and disagree with your position that Reinsdorf must go. Your argument style is very offputting sometimes. I think the extreme side of the argument, Dodgers and Rangers going bankrupt, was introduced by Balta and not me. The charge that the fans are fickle without looking at the lack of success during the 30 year tenure of Chairman Reinsdorf I don't think is fair.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2013 -> 04:00 PM) I just did some quick math. Since Jerry Reinsdorf took over the franchise, an average franchise would have had 6 playoff appearances, based on the number of playoff spots available and the number of teams in the league. The White Sox have had 5 (and would have had 6 had JR not been a key player in the strike). That's assuming playoff appearances are randomly distributed. If you include the Yankees soaking up 20 of them by outspending every other team in the world, the Sox ownership would actually be ahead of the game. Basically, they've taken a franchise that had 2 playoff appearances in 60+ years and made them into an average franchise. Given their position and the fact that they have a 2nd team to compete with, making them a middle-market franchise...they've done a solid job. THe negatives you can count against them are...sabotaging 1994, the ballpark construction, and the sacrificing of fan development by going onto Cable in the 1980's (in addition to perhaps Hawk's time as GM). But the results on the field say that they've significantly improved the team's performance and taken them up to being an average franchise from a moribund state. That's a great way to sum up Chairman Reinsdorf's tenure. He has been a Point A to Point B owner and has been richly rewarded for it. Buying the team for $20M, it's worth $600M conservatively. After 30 years, a change would be best for the franchise, imo.