Marty34

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jan 5, 2013 -> 10:15 AM) Well put, Marty. I think this team is kind of in MLB hell...stuck with certain contracts that cant rid of and no true farm depth. I think the current MLB roster is as average is it truly gets. Now that 'average' label can change if any of these guys break out this year: Beckham, Ramirez, Flowers or Viciedo. We pretty much know what we will get from Konerko, Dunn, Keppinger and hopefully Rios. Things could really get ugly if Konerko is who he was the second half, Dunn, Rios regress, and Danks isn't recovered from his surgery. All reasonably within the realm of possibility. They have a better chance of losing 90 games than winning 90.

The Sox are that team in the middle that last offseason KW said he did not want to be. I don't think the next couple of years are going to be particularly fun to watch, but they have to wait until some contracts roll off the books to build an offense. Hopefully in that time they will have solidified their top 3 or 4 starters.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 4, 2013 -> 03:19 PM) It's worth noting that Lohse was extended a qualifying offer and turned it down, so signing him and trading Floyd would send our first-round pick to St. Louis. I thought I read where the 2013 draft is supposed t be one of the weakest of all time. Giving up a pick might not factor.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 31, 2012 -> 06:45 PM) Well Matt Spiegel was not on the SCORE today so nice try. Lovie Smith got fired today if you haven't heard and that is what was talked about. If you look back in the thread a few days this topic is talked about. Spiegel did say this about AJ among other things. Look at the thread from last week. Like I said, was told. Thanks for the clarification.

Apparently Matt Spiegal said on the SCORE today that he was told AJ was telling anyone who would listen last year that he didn't respect Ventura.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 31, 2012 -> 10:23 AM) One of the most annoying things in pro-sports over the last decade or so has been the explosion of sim-games which make it incredibly easy to do a multitude of deals in a short period of time. The expectations for how a professional franchise is actually run have been distorted beyond all recognition. The Sox have been a franchise who have to be one of the most active historically over the last 10 years or so, and there are still a few people who are freaking out about the team doing nothing. Turn off the OOTP, turn off twitter, and come back to reality, please. It was difficult to see a way the Sox could contend for the division when the offseason began. After ~80+% of player movement is finished it is still difficult to see.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 31, 2012 -> 08:50 AM) Are you making this personal again? The mods are the reason this board is what it is.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 31, 2012 -> 08:54 AM) That .735 OPS number was his career # away from Coors Field. That's not a down year, that's a product of your home ballpark. Away from Coors Field he is Dayan Viciedo for his career. For a guy who is owed $70M, yes it would be a down year.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 30, 2012 -> 01:04 PM) Which seems to involved trading 23 year old Cuban outfielders and replacing them with old American injury prone DH's. Why are you bringing ethnicity into it?

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Dec 29, 2012 -> 04:05 PM) The $ is serious.... BUT the Cell is the AL version of Coors... I think he will be fine. It's a tough decision. Forgetting for the moment the players they'd have to give up for him, can the Sox win with Gonzalez as the highest paid position on their team of the course of those 5 years?

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Dec 29, 2012 -> 03:39 PM) A 3-5 year plan where we give up on 23 year olds after 1 season. Viciedo would not be in my 3-5 year plan currently. If he were playing 3B or RF, yes. If you're going to stick a 24 y.o. in LF he needs to produce quickly, if not he can be replaced fairly easily.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Dec 29, 2012 -> 03:44 PM) The Rockies are throwing Carlos Gonzalez's name out there. They need young pitching... this could be option to add that lefty bat to our lineup. The dude can play! Also, Kubel seems to be coveted by White Sox management. Bruce Levine thinks something may happen there.... An outfield with Kubel, Gonzalez and Rios wouldn't be too bad. It would also balance our lineup as well..... Gonzalez home/road splits shows he loves hitting at Coors. I'd think twice before committing to the $70M he's owed over the next 5 years.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 29, 2012 -> 03:41 PM) And Travis Hafner accounted for 0.6 WAR last year while playing the DH spot. So, you basically want to take Viciedo's 0.5 WAR last year, assume he won't get any better, move Dunn to the LF spot where his value will go significantly down because of his defense (typically 1 WAR to 3 WAR worse based on his NL history), and put Hafner into the DH spot to get 0.6 WAR. Net loss, 1 to 3 WAR, due mostly to your obsession with putting Dunn in LF. I'd rather not have Dunn in LF, but if the goal is to give yourself the best chance to contend without adding payroll it should be considered. Play the odds that dWAR is overrated.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 29, 2012 -> 03:18 PM) Please name them. Yes, I would say that the team which scored the 7th most runs in the AL last year and has upgraded its team OBP is not a bat short on paper. You'd say the Yankees are a bat short on paper. You got me. I can't name the 25 teams who have a better top 8 than the Sox, given that I suggest they use Axelrod and Castro to bolster the offense.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 29, 2012 -> 11:11 AM) Travis Hafner played 66 games last year. Only once in the last 6 years has he played over 100 games, and only once in his career has he missed less than 20 games a season. Also keep in mind, it isnt like Cleveland was running him out at first every time he played. he was only DHed, so even doing something like swinging a bat 3-4 ABs per game shelved him almost 100 games last season. My "path to a championship" isnt clear at this point, but I do know that Hafner is a dead end that will lead the Sox into a direction in which bench players that shouldnt be playing every day are in the lineup every day, and that is not good. Danks, Dunn, and Konerko accounted for 2 WAR last year. They account for roughly 43% of the current payroll, there are no simple answers. Everything should be open for discussion.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 29, 2012 -> 11:12 AM) Sale Peavy Danks Quintana Floyd Santiago Axelrod Castro They may...may have the depth to trade a starter, but that depends on how comfortable they are going with a lefty-heavy rotation, or going with Axelrod or Castro in the 5th slot for a portion of the year. IMO, if they want to trade Floyd, it's because they've decided they're comfortable with Santiago in the 5th slot. And they're not a bat short, on paper. They could benefit from having more LH hitters on the bench, I'll grant you that...but that ship already sailed in the OF when they resigned Wise. Not a bat short on paper? I was being kind, if you mean they are more than a bat short you're closer to being right. If you are counting Axelrod and castro as rotation depth there are at least 25 teams who have 8 better starters.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 29, 2012 -> 02:51 PM) Marty just likes to point out flaws on this team (sometimes nonexistent). But when you ask him for solutions, there usually is none or it's Travis Hafner. The solution is a 3-5 year plan.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 29, 2012 -> 10:49 AM) How do we make up the ground against Detroit? 1. Better starting pitching. Basically, that means: a.) Sale doesn't take a step back due to innings b.) Quintana is an adequate 3rd or 4th option and doesn't take a step back due to innings c.) Get Danks back, get a nearly full season from him with at least solid performance We're in pretty good shape on depth/guys from AAA who can step in if someone gets hurt, better than last year probably. Those 3 things are the rotation keys. 2. Better bullpen performance. That happens, mostly, by having Jones and Reed no longer be rookies, and perhaps by a full season by Veal. 3. Same defense, if not better. A couple guys might take steps back with age. Viciedo hopefully could get somewhat better in a 2nd full season out there. The possible real upgrades...3b now has a stable player at it when 1/2 the season last year was awful and You wasn't great, and Flowers hopefully can match, if not improve upon defense at home. 4. Only a small step backwards on offense. There are still a lot of guys who could get better there, but we've played moneyball too. We've improved 3b substantially even if Kep doesn't have a good year, solely by getting rid of Hudson and Morel's 1/2 season. Flowers should be an OBP upgrade at C, even if he's a slugging downgrade. 5. Better bench. This really was a big weakness last year, particularly in the 2nd half. It made people wear down, and cost us games every time someone like Olmedo was out there. So what's your rotation for next year? I don't think we have the depth in the rotation to trade a starter if the plan is to contend next year. As far as the offense goes, I'll call Keppinger an upgrade over the totality of 3B last year, but that still leaves them a bat short from possibly matching last year's offense and the simplest way to improve it is to sit Viciedo v. right-handers.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 29, 2012 -> 10:35 AM) Over the last 2 seasons, Hafner has fewer HR than AJ hit last year. Tell me again about how Hafner somehow replaces AJ's production? Dunn in LF would be much, much worse than Viciedo and Flowers in the same lineup. You said yourself protecting your rotation is more important than the offense, and yet you're willing to destroy, utterly utterly destroy the defense behind them? Since when do you measure production solely on homers? Hafner's OPS v. right-handers last year was .798. AJ's overall was .827. No way would Dunn in left be worse than the expected ~.625 OPS in ~650 plate appearances versus right-handers from Flowers and Viciedo. What's the best chance the Sox have to contend next year in your opinion?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 29, 2012 -> 07:59 AM) And this is why Marty always suggests trading our guys but never suggests what player he wants back[/b], because no where is it possible that Dunn in LF and Hafner at DH is an upgrade over our current setup. A 36 year old DH who has played 100 games once in the last 5 seasons, had a OPS barely over .800, and dropped down to .784 last year. That's somehow an improvement? It's an excercise in futility to make up trades on a message board because in most instances we don't know who is on the block or have any idea what the players trade value really is because there are so many factors we don't know. As far as Hafner/Dunn goes: 1.) Road to contention is to equal last year's offense while relying on the possibility of having a much better rotation than last year. 1.) Hafner replaces AJ's production cheap. 3.) Until further notice, can't have Viciedo and Flowers both in lineup vs, right-handers. 4.) Dunn in LF for 100 games wouldn't be pretty, but AJ was awful behind the plate and you lived with it last year. 5.) Sale/Peavy/Danks/Floyd/Quintana or Santiago gives the Sox an opportunity to have a good, cheap, rotation for 2014. Because of the injury to Danks, and the heavy workloads on Sale and Peavy, I think it's more important to keep Floyd, Quintana, and Santiago to protect those guys than to use them to upgrade the offense. What's your "path to contention" in 2013?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 28, 2012 -> 08:52 PM) Who is gonna take Hafner's place for the 80 games he misses with injury? My view is that the Sox going to have a tough time contending next year given the current roster unless they are willing to trade a SP for a bat and replace that SP with a free agent signing, even that might not be enough. My Plan B would be to replace AJ's offensive numbers with Hafner, Dunn in LF (Viciedo plays LF v. LH'ers, Dunn DH's) and keep the pitching depth of Floyd, Quintana, and Santiago. If things work out pitching wise the Sox can contend. I understand the liability Dunn would be in the OF, but the need for another bat (cheap) outweighs the defensive issue with Dunn. No, I don't think the Sox would do it so don't worry.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 28, 2012 -> 05:46 PM) After May 29th last year, Dunn hit.188 with a .305 OBP and a .727 OPS. If you think Viciedo is a guy you can't play and contend, what makes Dunn someone you can play out of position to contend? I think Dunn is a liability to this team wherever you put him. Unfortunately, the money he is owed dictates he plays which is different from Viciedo. I believe the best chance the White Sox have to contend next year is to keep Floyd, Quintana, Santiago and try to cobble together enough offense. If that means putting Dunn in left and signing Hafner, I can live with that for a year. If Santiago, Quintana, and Danks all perform well that opens up a lot of options for 2014.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 28, 2012 -> 04:47 PM) I'll never understand why people offer putting Sox players in positions they have already proven awful in (Dayan at 3B, Rios in CF, or Dunn in OF). All things being equal, I'd rather have Dunn in left than create a hole in the starting rotation. All this assumes the Sox are planning on contending this year.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2012 -> 03:17 PM) The problem with dealing an OF for this team is we don't have an OF ready to step in either...so we're in the position of dealing one of our OF's, trying to find a taker for that OF, but then also trying to find an OF of our own somewhere else. At the very least, that's complicated...if you deal one away, now you're left with Dewayne Wise and Jordan Danks as the replacement OF's at this point. Yeah you can sign someone to fill the gap...but then why is the team you're trading with not signing that same guy? Dunn returning to OF is an option depending on what you'd get in return for an OF'er you traded.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 27, 2012 -> 06:05 PM) Yes, that's why they've been taking calls on Gavin Floyd for 2-3 years. Sigh. It's also why he hasn't you know - been dealt. If the Sox deal a starter it should only happen if they can sign one of the remaining SP's on the market. Just not enough starters innings to let one (much less the two or three you referred to) go if they plan on contending.