fathom

QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:28 PM) What? That was Ozzie's biggest mistake of the game. It was either MacDougal or Aardsma. That's like having to select either L. Lohan or B. Spears to be your 12 year old daughter's role model.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:23 PM) You know what is kind of humorous about this is he gave an opp. to an inexperienced pitcher today in a key sitaution and the player failed and Guillen is getting his rear chewed on for not going with a more experienced guy. Yeah, when I think of Aardsma, I really think of him as such a young kid, and I think of Jenks as a 40 year old pitcher who's been around forever. Aardsma has been in the majors longer than Jenks has.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:19 PM) You are telling me Coop went to Jenks and Thorton and told them to stop throwing near 100mph and get more control of the pitch? They had good control when they were throwing near 100mph right? But Coop wanted them to have EVEN MORE control of their pitches and throw slower? Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. It is all Coop's fault. Yep, I absolutely believe they told Thornton that he can be more effecitve at 95 mph with control than throwing 98 mph with less control. Thornton used to be wild as hell with Seattle. I even heard Aardsma say earlier in the year that he was focusing more on command than overthrowing. Jenks has often stated that he's not as concerned about his velocity as he is his command. Cooper's not the only position coach that teaches this way. Hell, Rothschild is the opposite, and his pitchers always get hurt. QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:24 PM) From what I have been reading our minors have some good pitching depth. Isn't young pitching what every team wants? Don't you think the Sox could part with couple to get some veterans (Ichiro/Griffey) to replace the ones they will be losing? Let me know if that sticks. Griffey Jr. should be nowhere near this team from 2008 and on. Ichiro's going to get a ton of money this offseason, and when exactly was the last time that he lead his team to a good season? Also, don't buy into the hype with our minor league pitchers. Gio is our best pitching prospect (even he projects to be a 3, at best), and guys like Russell, Faustino, and Eggy still have a long way to go before they can be pencilled into the Sox rotation

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:16 PM) Part of the problem is that they trade young players they acquire/draft (Reed, Morse, and Olivo) and get something they need and has more valuable - a proven veteran pitcher (Freddy Garcia). Organizations view the development of players differently. The Sox seem to think of them as chips to get veterans. The Twins like to develop them and then lose them to free agency. And now we're at a point where the veterans we've traded for are either old or their contracts are done. Now, the lack of developing our minor leaguers is killing our depth at the big league level.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:13 PM) Stresses, ok, I can see that. I don't think he means stop throwing 100mph if you have control with it. Didn't Big Bobby do that? I don't believe Coop made him stop. There are other things involved in the equation besides the teaching of Coop. If you are that interested in it I think a little more research should be involved before fingers start getting pointed. I'm just sayin, I'm not sayin. You make it seem like Dusty and Ozzie are the only ones like this. If given the choice, any manager would rather have the vets than the young-ins - especially on a talented championship team. EVERY MANAGER! What manager isn't when given the choice? That's what we're saying...find a manager who's a little more willing to stick with young players. And if Cooper isn't the one telling the players to throw with less velocity so that they have more command, then he better be on the witch hunt to find out why it's happening to almost everyone over the last two years. The "stressful innings from the WS" excuse can't be used.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:09 PM) Absolutely ridiculous. Young players can't tolerate Ozzie? That is a ridiculous excuse. If that is the case then I don't want those certain young players on this team. It is sad that you have to coddle certain young players. I doubt the Sox ever go into full rebuilding mode under KW. I think it's a two way straight with Ozzie and the young prospects. Ozzie is so much like Dusty when it comes to his love for veterans.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:05 PM) Couldn't velocity have something to do with the way they are training? Maybe we should look at our trainer and the types of workout he is putting the Sox pitchers on. You really think Cooper has something to do with the reduction of velocity? Why didn't it happen before the 2005 season? Did this happen to the minor league system while he was down there? Maybe, just maybe, there is another reason than Cooper. Just throwing that out there. Yeah, who really knows. However, I've been told that Cooper stresses, which is funny to say after today, command on the pitches more than velocity.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:02 PM) This has been the battle cry every year except 2005 from every unknowledgable baseball fan that considers themselves a Sox fan. Before they won the World Series the battle cry included Reinsdorf. People are always calling for the GM's and manager's head. It is ridiculous. You don't win by doing that. An organization is going to have its ups and downs. What an organization needs most is continuity. The only way you don't want continuity is if these are bad baseball people who have s*** for brains. This is not the case and it was proved in 2005. These are good baseball people that you just want to throw away. Why? Because they are a .500 team on May 30th? Please - let the season play out a bit. Let's see who becomes available and if they can possibly acquire an Ichiro or Griffey or Freel. You don't just start blowing s*** up because of a mediocre couple of months. We've played below .500 baseball for far too long. The biggest reason I want to see Ozzie fired is that I don't want him around our young players when we go into full rebuilding mode next year. Let him go manage the Reds and take Erstad with him.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 10:01 PM) And how about leads/ games blown? I'd imagine this club is near the top. I know they've already blown more than the Twins did all last season. 9 games LOST when leading in the 6th inning or later.

QUOTE(BearSox @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:50 PM) The only two people who should be kept on the current coaching staff is Coop and Razor.... And we might need a new GM with a new point of view and who would re-tool the whole farm system coaching and player-wise. I'd have no problem with Cooper being gone. There has to be a reason that these guys are all losing their velocities. This is true straight years that the pitching staff, as a whole, has underachieved.

QUOTE(beautox @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:07 PM) lol what would you call jeff nelson in the later days of his career? Washed-up

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:40 PM) Another generalization? Everyone on this site, ok, I guess if you say so then it's correct. Not me but I am a nobody on this site I suppose, all I wanted was a guy who could throw strikes and not walk a guy. You know full well people would 2nd guess him for bringing him in to a nonsave but if it makes you feel better to not admit it that is ok by me. He gets 2nd guessed in every loss and from what I see mostly by you. I will continue to state the players need to execute better or fix them or get better players. It was a team loss, offense shut down after 3 ings and how many walks were there. Bobby could have walked the guy, guess what, 2nd guess time, whether you think so or not. This is my last post to you about this, as all you're doing is saying that everything is just a "generalization". Yes, I'm one of Ozzie's biggest critics on this site. However, go back and check the game thread if you want. I had no problem with MacDougal starting the 9th inning. I even said that every manager in baseball would do that. However, once it got to the situation where Hunter was the make or break batter for the game, that's when you have to bring in your best reliever. If you don't think that Jenks is our best reliever, then you must be watching a different team play. He's been the lone bright spot for the entire pitching roster the last few weeks.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:29 PM) Ahh now the May stats. Mgrs get 2nd guessed all the time adn book it he would have been 2nd guessed but if you say he would not have then ok. The aspect of Jenks not having pitched in 9 days ie the rust factor or he for some reason has trouble in those nonsave spots has nothing to do with it as it does not fit what you wanted, well ok. The players have to execute and most of them did not after the third inning. He pitched last Friday. Jenks is the best reliever we have, and it's not even close. Since every single f***ing person on this site was begging for Jenks instead of Aardsma, can we please knock it off about how everyone would have been second guessing Ozzie?

In the month of May, Jenks has a 0.00 ERA and a WHIP blow 1. During that same span, Aardsma's ERA is 9.00 and his WHIP is around 2.25. For the biggest out of the game, and in a walk-off situation, you better have Jenks on the mound. I don't think there's anyone on here that would have been mad at Ozzie if Jenks came in and allowed the run to score.

QUOTE(daa84 @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:18 PM) i know you are mr. pessimism, but isnt it remarkable that we are only 3 back in losses out of hte W.C.? Yeah, but I haven't even looked at that. Until we start playing good baseball, I won't even think of this being a playoff team. The sad thing is that I really feel the Yankees and Indians will be our biggest competitors for the WC, as I don't think the Twins have enough this year.

QUOTE(daa84 @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:14 PM) its funny cuz after 05 i simply had expected this team to play like its the best team in the league. all throughout last year i felt like we were, but as time has gone on i have realized that for that stretch of time, we were, and those days are gone....if this was 2004, i wouldn't be happy with the way the sox were playing, as all i hoped for was 86-90 wins...after 05 i expected better, and now like you, im starting to realize that the best i can hope for is to be in that 85+ win category, and anything beyond that is simply something that is only gonna happen in those magical type years I'm just so happy they capitalized on "our year". A lot of teams have a magical season, but they can't finish it off. Like you said, we were the best overall team for the majority of the 2005 season. Ever since the ASB last year, we're nowhere near that.

QUOTE(AirScott @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:10 PM) But Politte and Cotts always had the potential to be good, anyway. While we weren't expected them to put up astronomical numbers again, they were expected to fall into the range of "dependable," even more so in Cotts case, as he was projected to be a starter. Cotts allowed one homer during the entire 2005 season, and that's coming from someone with a 91 mph high fastball as his main pitch. It was possibly the luckiest individual season I've ever seen. Heck, I still don't know how Mike Lamb swung through that fastball in game 1 to strike out in the 8th inning.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:07 PM) It is easy, as you seem to do most games the last 10 days, to scapegoat the manager. The reality is it is much more than that. I think there's a plethora of things going on these days causing us to lose. However, we need better strategical managing to help this team when certain personnel is struggling. Aardsma can't have any confidence these days, yet we brought him into possibly the most difficult position a reliever can find himself in. After seeing Aardsma walk the bases loaded in his last game, I'll take my chances with the solid control of Jenks. And if a K isn't critical, then Jenks is definitely a better option than Aardsma, as Jenks hasn't allowed a homer all season.

QUOTE(daa84 @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:05 PM) ok, well what i mean is hta BA never had him as a top 10 prospect in the twins organization....and maybe that speaks to the depth of their organization, cuz i cant fathom (no pun intended) a guy outside our top 10 coming even close to putting up the #s neshek does in our pen.... maybe sleeper was a better way of putting it as this is from a BA chat, but nontheless....its not like anyone figured neshek would do what he is doing I don't know where he's been rated by them....I'm just going off of things said off the record by their analysts about him.

QUOTE(Steff @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:05 PM) The Twins are one of many clubs who are light years ahead of the Sox in terms of player development. It's amusing to me that with all of the Twins success under their current regime, we're the one with the World Series crown. I assume you're like me Steff, and you realize just how magical the 2005 season was with every passing day.

Neshek isn't a hidden gem...he's been a well-regarded member of their minors for a few years now. I know for a fact that the BA scouts LOVE him.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ May 30, 2007 -> 08:51 PM) What you said is it was a bad match up because of fastball tendancies. You are making lots of generalizations here with nothing to back it up, other than saying things a million times. Aardsma was pitching damn well inside earlier this year. It's not so much he can't, he showed he could and Sox fans loved him. His confidence and command are awful now and he needs to fix it, preferably in Charlotte for a few weeks IMO. Hunter's best swings are like most players best swings, when pitches stay out over the plate. Hunter has trouble with good sliders. If his best swings, as "everyone knows" are vs. fb's, well what is Jenks best pitch, I believe it is a fastball. I've seen Aardsma pitch probably more than anyone, as I watch almost all Cubs games also. Aardsma rarely pitched inside at the beginning of the year. Like during that Indians game where he was great, he was just painting the outside corner to righties. The catcher rarely sets up inside for him on the mound. Also, I disagree that Jenks best pitch is his fastball. Jenks fastball is actually his set-up pitch, as he strikes out hitters with his offspeed stuff almost every time. I can think of only a few strike outs he has this year from blowing his fastball past the hitter.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ May 30, 2007 -> 08:32 PM) garland is getting off the hook so easy with you cliff jumpers. The key part of the game to everyone is not bringing in our closer in a non save situation (which he does pretty terrible in for his career) and watching a pitcher walk in a run without a pitch close to the plate. Dont blame the players who had 20 walks in this series, dont blame the offense who couldnt muster a threat past the 3rd inning, or the starting pitcher who apparently was afraid of a 5 run lead. Blame the manager for making a basic decision that just happened to go wrong. And I thought White Sox fans were known for being knowledgable. I think we'll both agree that losing 9 games so far this year that we were leading during the 6th inning or later has been our biggest downfall. We never, ever extend a lead that we get early, and it always seems like we're just wasting outs until the opposition comes back. QUOTE(daa84 @ May 30, 2007 -> 08:47 PM) fathom, i agree with what you have said so far, but i fail to see how a fastball running in on teh hands of righties is a disadvantage....i completely agree with you though, that no doubt you want jenks in that situation, i just think you can throw a running fastball into righties without hitting them Aardsma can't pitch inside to righties. There's a reason that he throws about 95 pct of his fastballs to the outside corner. He's also someone that when he gets adrenaline flowing, he happens to overthrow and his ball tails over the plate more. If AJP set up inside on Hunter, he would have been begging for Aardsma to hit him.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ May 30, 2007 -> 08:40 PM) How about that rolling breaking ball he hit off of Garland? That wasn't a fastball. Bill Melton was on the postgame and he said it ticks him off because other teams know how to get hunter out. Basically you pitch him in on his hands and then he will chase offspeed stuff down and away. Let's face it this was a total team loss. That's another reason Aardsma is a bad match-up. He can't pitch inside against righty hitters. If he tried, his ball would tail right into them and hit them. Hunter might have hit a hanging curve, but everyone knows his best swings are against fastballs. Heck, even Farmer on the radio said that it wasn't a good match-up for the Sox.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ May 30, 2007 -> 08:34 PM) Danks is the only player the Sox shoudl be hesitant to trade. And even he, obviously, should be moved at the right, steep price. There's not a single player on the roster to build around. If KW has a big budget ofr 1 more season he should use that and the available talent to completely remake the team. Yep, Danks is the lone untouchable in the organization. It's scary how many holes we have with such a big payroll. We're going to suck big time the next few years. At least if some young guys are getting a chance, it might be a little more exciting. This is about the most boring team I can remember.