Kalapse

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:46 PM) I'm pretty sure a team would understand he is still capable of returning to the rotation. Especially considering it would be done not because of Jose's performance, but because of the lack of any sort of a bullpen on this team. The Phillies have already done it with Myers. Do you really think a team would only acquire Myers with the idea of him coming out of the pen? Myers is a 26 year old with big time talent. Contreras is probably somewhere in his 50's with deteriorating stuff and $20M left on his deal after this season he needs to stay in the rotation and finish the year off with some success to prove he can still be a decent starting pitcher. Having him pitch an inning or 2 every 2-3 days is not going to help convince anyone he can still throw 200 league average innings in a season for the next 2 years, especially if he's as bad out of the pen as I suspect he'd be.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:38 PM) Ichiro is 33 right now. I would be a bit weary considering alot of his value depends on him maintaining his speed. Although he may have a bit of Omar Vizquel in him regarding his ability to stay in shape late in his career. Undoubtedly, Ichiro will most likely continue to push himself to guarantee his entrance into the HOF. I don't think Ichiro will lose much athleticism over the course of a 4 year contract, perhaps a bit in the final year but his age really doesn't bother me one bit. He's possibly the most physically fit player in the league right now and has one of the most insane workout regimens imaginable. I'm as weary of the deteriorating athleticism of mid 30 year old players as anyone (which is why I have no interest in Hunter) but I just don't see it being a problem with Ichiro. If the Sox signed him to a 4 year deal he'd be 37 years old in the final year of the contract, hell even an overweight Tony Gwynn hit .372 in his 37 year old season. I really think Ichiro is just that good, he won't let age get in the way of success.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:34 PM) If Contreras is worth as little as you say, it's not going to harm much of anything anyways. At this point I think it would be pretty tough to get a team to eat all of Contreras' contract and get back talent at the same time but I definitely think someone would take a flier on him if it came at a minimal cost talent wise. If he were moved to the pen I don't think you're going to convince any team to eat that contract.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:26 PM) The whole point of the idea is to try and win this year. If you are trying to do that, you don't worry about trading Contreras right now. I'm not giving up quite yet, and I'm willing to try about anything to get this thing on the right track. Obviously, if you are conceding this season, than sure, putting Contreras in the pen does nothing but make things more complicated. Well that's where the problem is, I have given up on this year. All I care about is this team somehow competing for a playoff spot next season. Besides, Contreras would be a disaster out of the pen he has no strikeout pitch that he can throw for a strike, throws his fastball in the upper 80's with poor control and has a rather lengthy warmup routine. I also don't see how any youngster coming from the minors is going to outdo Jose's production in the rotation for the rest of the year. Moving Contreras to the pen would only create problems for the future rather than solving current ones.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:23 PM) Well, I'm not as high on Ichiro as several others seem to be. I don't like the idea of paying my leadoff hitter $13 million annually. But notice when I said I could live with Terrero/Rowand/Sweeney, that was with the qualification that we were signing Mark Buehrle. I don't know if we sign Mark we can afford Ichiro as well. I guess that depends on your Dye and ___ for Billingsly and Betemit scenario, whereby we could play Betemit at second and Fields at third. The Sox can absolutely afford both Ichiro and Buehrle but they'll need near minimum players in 2 outfield spots, at 3B and at 2B, that would leave around $5M-$8M to be spent on a few bullpen spots and the bench. This would also come after a Contreras trade. I'd spend $15M a year on Ichiro if it were a 4 year deal, the Sox haven't had a consistently good leadoff hitter since god knows when, atleast with Ichiro you know you have one of the 5 best in baseball and probably THE best contact hitter in the game which is something this lineup desperately needs. I don't want another 5 seasons of scrub leadoff hitters, just sign Ichiro and be done with it for the next 4 seasons.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:14 PM) The key is to move Contreras and get him to agree to waiving his no trade clause. I think teams would have interest in him. He's had a couple rough outings but the end result is he still has a relatively decent ERA while pitching in a hitters league and in a hitters park. I think you could get some talent for him, clear up some payroll and get another young arm up here to be able to better evaluate whether that young arm is capable of being considered part of the rotation in the future. Exactly and moving him to the bullpen would only make dealing him tougher.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:11 PM) His arm would make him most valuable in right or center. With Dye leaving soon, it might be best to put Terrero in right even and signing a center fielder, and placing Sweeney in Left. If Mark could be signed for something reasonable, I might even be able to get behind something like Terrero in right, Rowand in center (*gasp* as a lower-tier FA cf option), and Sweeney in left. And where is your leadoff hitter coming from then? I'd rather not have those 3 in the outfield, if Terrero and Rowand are going to be out there then I want an impact bat in LF, if Sweeney and Terrero are out there then I want an impact bat in RF. I just don't think a Sweeney/Rowand/Terrero outfield would provide enough offensive production, maybe a combined .750 OPS tops. I desperately want Ichiro on the South Side next year, he'd fill the vacant leadoff spot and supply the team with an above average contact hitter in the outfield. A Sweeney/Terrero/Suzuki outfield would be just outstanding. QUOTE(knightni @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 01:13 PM) I bet Vazquez is just wishing to go back to the NL. He can actually be successful there. Send him to the Dodgers with Dye for a boatload of spects. No part of that would make any sense for either side.

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 11:43 AM) Rowand is the youngest FA Cfer out there. And, we have to have some guys that we KNOW can play. Actually Corey Patterson is 2 years younger than Rowand and will be a free agent after this season.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 12:35 PM) Kalapse, Judging from what you think of Betemit, is it safe to say you'd be willing to see what Terrero can do in either LF or CF next year? As of a few days ago I have begun advocating Terrero for starting CF in '08. He has all the tools to be a pretty decent starting outfielder especially in center and his very small contract would allow for greater financial flexibility in the offseason.

I'd much rather not pay $10M a year for a bullpen arm especially one who can't locate his strikeout pitch and throws in the high 80's. Contreras would be a disaster in the pen on a few levels.

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 12:06 PM) Betemit will replace Kent or Nomar next year so I doubt they move him. The best package might be one that includes Dye and McDougal or Dye and Iguchi. The problem is that there is no replacement for Iguchi next year. They would be best served trying to resign him and package Dye with someone(Floyd, Gonzalez, Contrearas. etc) to get legitimate prospects that can contribute immediately (ie come up now and play everyday). The Padres come to mind as Contrearas would look good in that ballpark. Jeff Kent isn't going anywhere, he has a vesting option that will be activated by August unless he suffers a catastrophic injury before then. With Garciaparr, Loney, Kent, Furcal and Laroche all being around for next season along with Chin-Lung Hu and Tony Abreu in the fold Betemit is more than expendable. And Contreras' complete lack of control looks good in no ballpark. QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 12:09 PM) The way you make hay with these trade deadline deals is to acquire high-upside prospects that could turn into stars. At least that's the way I look at it. Wilson Betemit is not going to be the player that leads to future success for this organization. If Billingsly came back in a deal for Dye, I can live with getting Betemit. But I'd rather take my chances on someone who can blossom into something more than Betemit. Perhaps I have higher hopes for Wilson Betemit than you do, I'm also thinking about next season because at this point the Sox are going to need a young talented 2B to plug in if they want to compete next year.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 12:00 PM) I'd rather take a chance on a high-upside prospect than Betemit. His OBP is admirable, but I'm just going to get excited about a career .760 OPS guy in both the minors and the mlb. A career .771 OPS in the majors and he's 25 years old. That's a higher OPS than Crede put up for the first 5 seasons of his career. He has huge power potential, is making nothing and has yet to enter his prime. 2 major league pieces are greater than 1 and a prospect, I'm also quite skeptical as to whether the Sox could get a second high upside prospect along with Billingsley for just Dye that just seems like too steep a price to pay. Atleast with Betemit you know he's expendable.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 11:44 AM) Dye would look good in Dodger Blue. And Billingsley would look good warming up next year before a game at the Cell. Get us a decent SS prospect in the deal and we can call it a steal. I'm telling you Billingsley and Betemit for Dye and _________ would be an absolutely ideal trade. A talented young starter to plug into the rotation next year at near league minimum salary and a power hitting 25 year old infielder to put at 2B (he homered again yesterday, up to 6 in ~100 AB) who is also a Pre-Arb player. A deal like that could set the Sox up for a good push next season.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 11:23 AM) I'm sorry but this sucks. I would hate KW if he did anything close to this. Why do the Dodgers want another SP in Contreras? Why do the Yanks want another LH hitter in Thome? Why are we trading Konerko and why do the Red Sox want him to replace Youkilis when Youkilis is doing so much better? Why the hell are we trading Jenks - especially to the Cubs? I am sooooo glad you are not the GM of my favorite team. It seems like you love prospects waaaaaay too much. I'd do that Dodgers deal in a god damn heartbeat but Ned Colletti would hang up half way through the word Contreras.

QUOTE(MHizzle85 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 11:36 AM) What the hell up is Ozzie's love for Cintron? We can only hope he's dealt to a contender sometime in the next 2-6 weeks so we never have to see him again.

QUOTE(Allsox @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 11:14 AM) I don't think Paulie's contract is that bad. Now, Contreras' and Vazquez's on the other hand will prevent this team from being competitive in '08 and they'll lose Buehrle because of them. If not for Vazquez and Contreras, the rotation in '08 would be: Buehrle (Re-signed thanks to ditching Vaz 11 and Count 9 from this offseason) Garland Danks Masset Floyd/Gonzalez Winner in Spring Training I could have lived with that rotation next yr than this projected '08 rotation: Garland Contreras (Do they have a choice really?) Vazquez (Again, no choice but to put mediocrity here) Danks Masset/Floyd/Gonzalez Winner in Spring Training The Vazquez contract is easily movable if it came to that to say his deal is going to keep this team from competing is just asinine. How is Masset being in the rotation going to help this team? Floyd or a 21 year old who's repeating AA in Gonzalez? You've got to be s***ting me. It's funny that Javy Vazquez is actually becoming underrated when Nick Masset is being labeled as the superior starting pitcher. Some of you really need to get over one start in perfect weather conditions against a bad Cubs team, he hasn't shown anything positive out of the pen. If you think Vazquez is mediocre then I can't imagine what you must think of Masset, Floyd and Gonzalez. Contreras on the other hand I agree on.

1.) The Dodgers have ZERO use for Contreras and he doesn't have nearly as much value as you think. He's somewhere in his 50's and appears to be breaking down I doubt you could get more than a couple fringe prospects for him at this point in time especially with $20M still left on his deal after this season. 2.) Thome's not waiving his no trade clause again especially to go to New York. The only reason he even waived it in the first place was to come home to the Chicago land area. There's a reason why he has the clause and he's going to take advantage of it. 3.) Callaspo is an wife beater so no thanks there, Byrnes is a free agent after this season and having an infinitely better season than Dye. That trade makes no sense from their point of view. 4.) The Red Sox have the Greek God of walks at 1B who's having one hell of a season so I doubt the Red Sox would be willing to give up so much good young talent to fill a hole that does not exist. Besides that Paul Konerko is not getting traded. 5.) Jenks? For that package? Samardzija is a completely worthless piece of s***, he's lost all velocity, can't strike any one out and is walking the world. I'm not trading a power armed closer for a slap hitter in Theriot and an expensive, just plain bad pitcher in Samardzija.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 09:14 AM) This team ought to be looking to deal some of its .224 hitters, not add more. Agreed. The Sox have enough outfielders and more than enough of them are hitting under .230. It's about time to start playing the youngsters everyday while pushing the vets out the door. Clark would do nothing for this team right now but take playing time away from a young player.

If I'm KW I'm trying pretty damn hard right now to move Cintron and Mackowaik to contenders looking for utility infielders. Get a couple s*** prospects for them and fill their roster spots with Tony Eusebio and Don Baylor.

I've tried so damn hard this year to give Ozzie the benefit of the doubt and back him as often as possible but I have a feeling he's going to make it real damn hard to do so with the way he's apparently thinking about handling the 3B situation.

Son of a f***ing b****, I can't take this s*** anymore. Andy Gonzalez is not anything, he's nothing, he'll be a below average utility player for the Sox next season but that's pretty much his career plateau. Mackowiak will not be with the team next season, once again there's no f***ing reason to play him. Please Ozzie, don't be a asshole on this one just play the kid everyday for the rest of the season, even if he puts up a .600 OPS the rest of the way he's giving you more than you got from the position for the first 2 months of the season.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 12:39 AM) Every manager does that. Especially with struggling rookies. I let Josh play. I think Ozzie will, too, but I'm just saying he won't be the first. Not just Dusty Baker but Ron Gardenhire. I could honestly care less what the perception is with other managers. This particular situation should be handled one way and one way only, play Fields every damn day. This team is not going to win jack s*** this season so an easy out at 3B won't exactly kill the team's at winning the Division. Alex Cintron is dog s*** and will not be with the team next season, there's no reason for him to see another AB at 3B for the rest of the year. Joe Crede will possibly never play another game with the Sox again, the Sox need to figure out if they have something in Fields or if they're going to need to find a replacement through other means this offseason.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 12:26 AM) Terrero should be playing everyday right now. I am curious to see just how good this guy is as his sample size grows. We also need Fields in everyday to figure out what we have in him. I'd also like to see us call up Sweeney and play him everyday as well. Whether it be Sweeney in CF and Terrero in LF or Terrero in CF and Sweeney in LF (with Fields always at 3B), I want to see those 3 playing everyday. We need to get SOMETHING out of this season. I'll tell you one thing, as of right now Luis Terrero is my starting CF for 2008. I absolutely hated the guy during Spring Training and to start the year at Charlotte but he's really shown me something. He seems to be a pretty consistent power threat, I don't know about the rest of his offensive ability but it does seem that his power is real. He seems to play some great defense out in CF and he has an absolute cannon for an arm not to mention some decent speed. Power + Defense + Arm + Speed + League Minimum = starter for me. Of course now he'll go 0 for his next 27 or something just to prove me wrong.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 12:27 AM) Sounds like the BA situation. I bet soon enough Ozzie will start to cart Cintron out there as a starter. Or he could just f***ing play the future of the franchise everyday at 3B. He's going to f*** around with Fields for the rest of the year and by the end of the season they still won't know what the f*** they have in Josh. This is exactly why I don't want Ozzie around when the rebuilding starts up, he has a set way of dealing with struggling rookies, play the s***ty vet who can't play worth a lick every other day until the rookie starts to get pissed off then claim he has attitude problems and send him back to AAA. I don't give a s*** if Fields can't hit a fastball right now or when he takes a s*** in the clubhouse it smells up the place with Joe Crede about to go under the knife I want Fields at 3B everyday, that's the only way they're going to know if they have something in Josh. Enough of this playing vets over rooks bulls*** Josh needs to play every day to prove he can hang at the highest level.

So did Fields tweak something or does Ozzie just have no clue what he's doing?