Kalapse

QUOTE(chitownsportsfan @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 11:05 PM) LOL, f***, maybe I should have just started another media watch. The ironic thing is, you've replied to this exact post once before . . . QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 10:40 PM) Dwight Gooden, Vida Blue, Frank Viola, Ramon Martinez, Britt Burns, and even Larmar Hoyt who are they? Pitchers who had good to great 3-5 years to start their careers but then things didn't work out for them to have long productive careers. QUOTE(chitownsportsfan @ Apr 22, 2006 -> 10:32 PM) If you're saying that MB will suffer a similiar fate bacause he's similiar to those guys--you are dead wrong. MB is in his 7th MLB season first off, so I'm not sure where the "3-5" good years thing comes in. Ok, the guys you compared him to: Doc Gooden has drug problems--hard drug problems--he is not a good comparison. Frank Viola was a damn good pitcher. 9 times over 200ip, and a career ERA+ of 113. Heck, he pitched over 250IP 5 times. Not a HOFER, but certainly a good player, with a long and solid career. If MB has a Fran Viola career that would be awesome. Martinez only made it over 200IP 4 times in his 13 year career, and finished with a 105 ERA+--he is a decidely mediocre pitcher. His first 5 full seasons--yes, he did flash some potential. However, he didn't do it the level MB is doing it, not even close. His age 26 season he had an ERA+ of 99. MB's age 26 ERA+ was 143. Screw the other two guys, your argument was poor, I hope this proves it.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 10:43 PM) Dwight Gooden: Druggy Dude, nobody is above becoming a drug addict.

QUOTE(chitownsportsfan @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 10:41 PM) Please enlighten me. Was there a rather infamous thread on this already? A few but sometimes you gotta discuss the continued rise and the continued fall of the same damn pitcher.

Dwight Gooden, Vida Blue, Frank Viola, Ramon Martinez, Britt Burns, and even Larmar Hoyt who are they? Pitchers who had good to great 3-5 years to start their careers but then things didn't work out for them to have long productive careers.

QUOTE(LosMediasBlancas @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 10:05 PM) The game to game evaluation of players and the on the ledge-off the ledge attitude around here is funny. I'm with you, I'll wait til the end of the year to evaluate players. Except for Juanito, he just flat out sux at the plate. So you just ignore the current state of players such as Garcia and his 86 MPH fastball instead wait until the end of the year and then evaluate them? I'm glad KW doesn't do that. QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 10:06 PM) Well Buehrle is up to about 4 and a half now, and Garcia and Vasquez are BARELY ahead of Garland in ERA now for the year. Garland was bad for longer than the other 3 have been, but still has an ERA nearly the same as Vasquez and Garcia, and one that is about 7/10 of a run worse than Buehrle. That to me really says that although Garland was bad longer, these 3 have just been AMAZINGLY AWFUL in this latest stretch. Yes, this is all basically true but it's really not what you said in the post I quoted. I do agree with what you said here though.

QUOTE(greg775 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 10:01 PM) Not by me. For some reason, some people hate the guy. I think it's his pretty boy California laid back I dont give a s*** personality, which some fans take as being a Judy. I think he's great. He beat a team that's been beating everybody except the Sox. Hope we keep it up. GO SOX. :rolly Yeah, it's all because he's a laidback California surfboy it has absolutely nothing to do with his 7.11 April ERA (1.52 WHIP) or 5.40 May ERA (1.55 WHIP).

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 09:58 PM) He was no worse during that stretch than Vasquez, Garcia, and Buehrle have been for an extended period of time now, yet got 10 times more s***. As bad as Buehlre has been of late, his ERA is still no where near 5 like Garland's and I really don't remember him sucking for 2.5 months like Garland did. Also Garcia was not as bad as Garland during that stretch but now that he hasn't picked it up he's catching more s*** than any other player on the team (outside of Widger). Also, Vazquez has been in the 3's and 4's of ERA all year, he's only recently touched 5. I really don't see how any of them have been as bad as Garland was for 2.5 months this year.

No one has b****ed about Garland in quite a while and deservedly so, it still doesn't forgive him for being useless in April, horrid in May and pathetic for half of June. Though all in all it's great to see Garland finally comming around after being pretty bad for 2.5 out of 3.5 months this season.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 09:22 PM) Technically, it's..."I don't think that taste is there." Man, that phrase will be used forever, good thing Tim McCarver is completely senile.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 09:32 PM) Dude the Rays love leftfielders who are horrible fundamentally and pitchers with bloated contracts about ready to end. Don't you know this? Think they'd have any interest in Politte? Maybe we can swing Widger over to them too he can serve as a team leader and teach the youngin's a thing or two about how to play in the bigs, I heard Scott Kazmir has fallen out of favor with management down in Tampa and is currently on the block, I really think we can put together a package for him.

Some day people will realize that the Devil Rays have absolutely no use for any of Podsednik, Garcia, Vazquez, Garland or any other high priced 26+ year old player the Sox happen to have.

QUOTE(TitoMB345 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 03:51 PM) Does he play LF? If so, I would love the pick up. I don't think Pods is going to be resigned, and if he can fill in, then I wouldn't mind the trade. What about leadoff? Would he be able to hit there? Hmm, I love his defensive ability and his arm, but I'll have to look into him more before I make up my mind. You really have no idea who Vernon Wells is don't you? Right now he's probably the best defensive outfielder in the American League and probably second in baseball behind Andruw Jones. He is not a leadoff hitter, he's much more of a 3 hole hitter, great contact, real good pop, great run producer with some above average speed. I've always thought the world of him because he has so many well polished tools.

I'm beginning to lose faith in humanity.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 02:15 AM) Someone needs to catch up on their American Pop Culture. Frankly I'm shocked that there's anyone out there that hasn't seen Animal House. Pretty sad.

Lawrence Holmes was on his f***ing game today, he ripped the s*** out of Sox fans and it was an absolutely beautiful thing. What did he say you ask? Just imagine me yelling into a microphone for a few hours on everything I b**** about here. Including a certain thing some "fans" have been doing in the late innings of close games this year that I've ranted on in the past.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 11:49 PM) Fact is, the bullpen isnt the weakness it was at the beginning of the season. Our starting pitching is much more suspect, and if we are planning on moving a starter to let BMAC get a shot, I would hope that our return on a solid starter would be more than Josh Fields would bring us. With that said, I would hope that would be the only move we make this season. I am not ready to replace BA, and I sure as s*** dont want our biggest move to be in the pen. Actually, let me edit that. Call me crazy, and alot of you will. I kinda would like Soriano to patrol LF for a little while. Maybe even bid on Julio Lugo. But for some reason, these other deals seem to be like dealing to deal. The great thing about dealing Fields for Linebrink is you give up a player who is not currently on your 25 man roster, you upgrade the pen BIG TIME and you upgrade the starting rotation at the same time. So while your trading for a reliever you're also adding a starting pitcher at the same time in McCarthy. So it's not really dealing just for a reliever it's also upgrading our rotation which is the biggest concern of course. I really don't want Lugo anywhere near the Sox, he's going to cost a pretty penny (think Renteria/Andy Marte) and would not fill a position of need not to mention the character issues. Now that would be dealing just to deal. You think Pods sucks ass in LF? Soriano is beyond horrendous plus he'll cost you a s***load along with not upgrading a need, I'd much rather go after Crawford, who is not a free agent next year like Soriano. I don't understand why you'd be against upgrading the bullpen and the starting rotation at the same time but you'd be for adding a LF/SS which doesn't fit a need for this season at all. QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 12:00 AM) I actually talked to WHarris about this, and I would love to see Crawford on this team. Wow, someone's going out on a f***ing limb. :rolly

QUOTE(loltrain @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 11:48 PM) Probably already posted by someone, but it has been reported that the Padres turned down Austin Kearns for Linebrink straight up. I doubt they'd deal him for a minor leaguer or two. Kearns also has some serious injury concerns, has ben incredibly inconsistent and plays the outfield as opposed to a premier position like 3B which is much harder to find an above average talent at.

QUOTE(WHarris1 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 05:15 PM) Number 2 best city to live in You need to go back to being a guest. :headshake

Just gonna put this in here for future reference . . .

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:33 PM) Would any one rather try to move Freddy for young SP Prospects and then combine them with Fields in an attempt to get Crawford? That is all I really care to keep Fields around for. To try and get one of these young stars who may become available such as Crawford or MCab. That doesn't really fill a need for this season though and it probably makes the team weaker at the same time. You're giving up your top 2 trading chips in Fields and Garcia and adding a player who will help the offense but is not a necessity right now. You'd have to move McCarthy into the rotation, weakening your bullpen because you'd have to look in house for a replacement since your main trading chips are gone. QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:36 PM) Let me add this....in a perfect world, we would hold on to Fields the rest of this season, re-sign Joe Crede, and then Fields, Broadway, and Tracey (among others) as the centerpiece in a deal to either get Carl Crawford, D. Willis, or M. Cabrera. That would be a dream come true, sans Willis. I just have a feeling Fields won't be in Charlotte Aug. 1st. There's just too many holes on this year's team that can be filled by moving Fields at the deadline.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:30 PM) Are you really willing to just accept that premise so easily? *Why* is it necessarily more difficult to pitch in middle relief than in the 8th inning? Actually I do believe this. It's pretty much the same reason why it's so hard to find a reliable closer, for whatever reason as it gets later in the game it just gets harder and harder to get hitters out and when the game is on the line you need a certain type of pitcher in there who can handle that sort of pressure, it's the reason why so many pitchers fail in setup roles and end up getting moved to middle relief. But that's pretty much just how I see it plus this is sort of an incomplete thought, there's a lot more to it that I really can't articulate right now.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:06 PM) Kalapse...question....I know we have been known to like Cesar Carrillo, as others have mentioned in this thread. I also know they may be shutting him down for the remainder of the season. If that was the case, could he indeed be traded still? Yes, yes he could. If they were really going to trade him though they could just leave him active until a trade was finalized then it's the new team's responsibility to do whatever they want with him.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:16 PM) Since you are apparently a stats guy, if the guy's so fabulous, why does his career line look so much like David Riske's? Total -- 281 6 0 0 340.1 295 122 112 35 123 303 24 8 2 79 14 2.96 Total -- 307 0 0 0 339.0 281 141 131 47 145 332 17 14 16 36 13 3.48 Which of these two stat lines is better? Especially when one is all NL, and the other is all AL? The main thing Linebrink has on Riske is fewer gopher balls, which likely accounts for the difference in runs allowed and ERA. But at least some of that difference would be lessened by park and league adjustments. Otherwise, the WHIPs are essentially identical. Again, I'd take Linebrink over Riske too. I just wouldn't mortgage the farm to get him. Riske = 6th/7th inning Linebrink = 8th/9th inning It's pretty much as simple as that, it's easier to pitch in middle relief than it is in setup duty. Plus when you're looking at relief pitchers it's best to break them down year by year and look at what they've done recently because they're so inconsitent and it takes some longer to become great. Linebrink was used speradically in Houston and didn't really put up great numbers there but since comming to San Diego he's been lights out both at home and on the road.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:58 PM) Well, I changed those very words before posting. I can live with "a good chance." Even at that level, he's worth more to me than a 30-year-old set up guy with 1 year left on his contract. A 30 year old top 5 righty setup guy who could push this team over the top And what's the problem with him only having a year left on his deal? The Sox have money, if he kicks ass for the next year and a half like he has for the past 2 and a half, I'm sure the Sox will lock him up. The last thing I'm worried about is '08. Also, who ever said the deal was Fields for Linebrink straight up? It doesn't necessarily have to be that cut and dry.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:35 PM) So, in other words, you would agree that he'd be, at best, the third best pitcher in our bullpen, behind Jenks and Cotts, based on ERA+? (Which is exactly what I said.) Or is Jenks' ERA+ actually lower than Linebrinks? I bet it is. Which illustrates why that stat is not all that it is cracked up to be. I assume you wouldn't supplant Bobby Jenks with Scott Linebrink?? But just to be clear about this, I probably wouldn't trade Josh Fields for Neal Cotts, and I think VERY highly of Neal Cotts. (Maybe Fields will be a bust, but the way he's come on in AAA after posting so-so AA stats indicates to me the guy could be a star. And any everyday player who is above league average is worth more than a set-up bullpen guy.) I'm not averse to adding Linebrink (though I still think Gordon is better). Just not at the price some guys were suggesting. Neal Cotts, if he pitches the way he did last year consistantly in the future will have insane trade value and value to this team. A dominant lefty setup man is nearly impossible to find and the Sox could possibly have 2. It is interesting that you're able to carry on a conversation with yourself like you did in the second part of you post so I'll move on. If the Sox were able to acquire a top 3-5 righty setup man in baseball like Scott Linebrink it would improve this team to an insane degree. You seem to love Jenks and Cotts which is cool and all but Linebrink has proven WAY more than those two have, Jenks doesn't even have a full season under his belt and on the Cotts front, in many people's eyes he didn't even have a place on this team in the beginning of '05. This team could set themselves up for a huge run by acquiring Linebrink just think about it: 6th/7th: R: Riske L: Thornton 8th/9th: R: Linebrink L: Cotts Closer: Jenks With McCarthy who is arguably this team's 2nd/3rd best starting pitcher right now moving back into the rotation and Garcia being shipped out for another piece. I know you've never seen Linebrink pitch before so this might not mean a whole hell of a lot to you but to those who have seen the man pitch (sans Fathom) they know how exciting the idea of this bullpen alignment is.