hitlesswonder

QUOTE(SoxFan77 @ Jul 26, 2007 -> 09:32 PM) I feel 2005 was luck and that Ozzie was the main reason not KW for the change in thinking, we have gone back to the 2004 days.. and he refuses to rebuild a team that is old and under preforming. The 2004 team wasn't that bad -- they lost Frank Thomas and Ordonez to injuries. That's like 1.900 OPS on the DL. Not that you're wrong about KW never making the playoffs again. That could easily happen. Mark Shapiro hasn't made the playoffs since 2001. And he's a better GM than KW -- he won TSN Exec of the Year in 2005.

QUOTE(SoxFan77 @ Jul 26, 2007 -> 08:41 PM) Fields is the first spect in 7 years to come up and look like MLB player. 1 spect in 7 years.. that is downright awful. We are a middle market team, we need a farm system.. we don't have one.. we won't be ready for another playoff birth until we have one. Well, there was Rowand (all-star baby!). And McCarthy. And Young (although not with the Sox...). Jenks came up from the minors although he spent more time in the LAA system. And some Sox relievers have gone on th big league careers elsewhere (Rauch, Guerrier,...).

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Jul 26, 2007 -> 08:32 PM) I don't know how the other teams in the division stack up during that same time period. But Williams and staff do have a track record of putting a competitive team on the field. I'm not a huge fan of Williams, but I don't see how anyone can say he has a bad record minus his World Championship (which is already funny -- let's just disregard a World Series year...). He built competitive teams on a relatively tight budget. On a big budget he built a team that won 90 games and would have made the playoffs except for Buehrle being the worst pitcher in baseball in the second half of 2006. This year is the first year that any team of his has been absolutely horrible. Williams big weakness is the state of the Sox minor league system -- which is so bad that it wouldn't be unreasonable to say he should be fired for it....But given the strong record of the franchise at the major league level, I don't think thats wise at this point. I think he's a decent GM. I reserve the right to revise this opinion after the trading deadline.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jul 26, 2007 -> 04:19 PM) Considering how Poreda was drafted with the intention of starting, if his career is as a middle reliever someone once again failed in their assessment of a draft pick. Dbaho is correct in assuming some would flame the selection. I think it's OK to flame the selection now. Carlos Gomez of THT was able to predict he'd get injured by looking at 40 seconds of video. Now we have forearm tightness (often a symptom of compensating for shoulder problems) and reducing Poreda's workload to a reliever. Any wanna bet this guy can sustain the innings to make it to the big leagues let alone as a starter? If some guy blogging for THT can see future problems in a cursory look, what was the Sox staff doing? Nice new direction.

QUOTE(Colorado Sox Fan @ Jul 26, 2007 -> 05:47 PM) If we have talent, why trade it away for something less. That seems to be what we're getting out of recent deals because of bad scouting. Is that true? I don't think the Sox have made an obviously bad trade in a while. You can argue they should have gotten more for Garcia and McCarthy, but I don't think the lost either trade.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 25, 2007 -> 02:53 PM) fields really needs to work on the K's. He is already over half way to 100. He has a good eye, but he pushes his luck a lot by looking at good pitches. I would like to see him a bit more aggressive up there. And he really needs to learn how to hit the fastball above 90 mph. I agree he needs to somehow increase his contact rate. I'm not sure being more aggressive is a good way to do it. He sees a lot pitches and walks somewhat. It's actually one of his strengths. He definitely has trouble with heat, but the HR off Miller was on a 94 MPH fastball (according to Gameday).

QUOTE(Steff @ Jul 25, 2007 -> 02:34 PM) Ok. Now I've seen it all. Defense of Kenny pre 2005... The Colon trade was good...as was signing Loaiza...and then trading Loaiza

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jul 25, 2007 -> 02:22 PM) So then I'll say that you're full of crap. KW traded for the wrong guy named "Barry" from LAD -- he thought they were getting a 24 year old relief prospect and instead he got a 32-year old OF link If that doesn't look ridiculous... The Moneyball references that show the A's laughing their collective asses off at both the trade of Bradford and the drafting of Ring over Blanton have already been mentioned. Moneyball paints Williams as a stooge (FWIW, I think the A's also thought MIL drafting Prince Fielder was a hoot). Fathom has mentioned that the Sox drafts are regularly considered humorous to BA (drafting Ricky Brooks in particular was laughed at, I believe). And THT's Carlos Gomez has ripped the Sox 2 top picks of 2007 but good. And Poreda's already injured, which makes Gomez look like he knew what he was talking about. So, I'm not saying KW is a bad GM. I actually don't think he is. But you can't deny the people around baseball haven't thought much of their front office. Of course, 2005 probably boosted the Sox stock a little. I have no idea how they are perceived at this point and it probably doesn't matter...

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 25, 2007 -> 01:49 PM) He was dominant in the minors up until he hit the majors. We have different definitions of dominant. He had a 4.99 ERA in AAA in 2004 before being a Sept. call up. Throughout the minors, he K'd 7 per 9 which is OK -- not dominant, and he had a BB/9 of around 3. His latest stint in AAA is the first time he's racked up "dominant" numbers at AAA. I agree -- he almost surely won't pan out. But the Sox have nothing to lose by seeing what he has in more than a couple games. Maybe he can turn into a reliever, at least.

QUOTE(AirScott @ Jul 25, 2007 -> 11:05 AM) I think July 2007 is too early to count out the 2008 Sox. The rotation will likely be Buehrle-Garland-Vazquez-Danks (in his second year)-one of Broadway/Floyd/Haeger/Gio. There are holes, yes, but they can be filled, and obviously the bullpen will look completely different. It's not early. The Sox have a 0.1% chance of winning the Central next season. If you think the top 4 sox starters will all be back and all pitch this well next season...well, that's incredibly unlikely. Plus the Sox have so many holes in the pen and on the field, there's no way to fill 2/3s of them even. The Sox have less talent that KC at this point. I think the Sox can field an over .500 team next season with some good moves, but competing for the playoffs? No.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jul 25, 2007 -> 10:21 AM) And it's not a question of "Dye or Konerko." It should be Dye + oneofThomeorKonerko. But SSI is right -- he's co-GM. Thome has a NTC.

QUOTE(LukeGofannon @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 03:07 PM) BP's morons? http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/03/compu...e-feelings.html BP had no idea what they were talking about. They projected the Sox to suck and were right, but the big reason for that projection was PECOTA saying Buehrle, Garland, Danks, Contereras, and Vazquez would all have ERAs over 4.5 (or higher, I don't remember). They were right on one of those pitchers. And they failed to project the depth of suck the offense and bullpen would produce. If they take credit for an accurate prediction, that's rather intellectually dishonest -- they got the right answer but for the wrong reasons.

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Jul 25, 2007 -> 09:08 AM) why is it that when i read anything on pitching prospects for any team, they always say "he's a 3 or 4". I mean theres gotta be some 1or 2's out there somewhere. I'm starting to think all these "baseball experts" are complete ass-clowns. Guys that project as "#1 or #2" starters are very. The whole pitching slot ranking thing is silly -- do the Royals have a #1 starter? Do the Sox? When people say #1 starter they are thinking of Santana, and that's very rare talent. Anyway, Philip Hughes certainly projects as "top rotation" guy. And Lincecum in SF does as well. You just saw Andrew Miller. And Bucholz (sp?) with Boston I'm sure is being projected by many people as a top-rotation pitcher.

QUOTE(greg775 @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 11:48 PM) Send him down now and keep him down. Yuck. I am as pessimistic about Floyd as anyone, but they should have him pitch as much as they can stand...or at least put him in the bullpen and see what he does. The Sox don't need to win any more games this season, but they do need to know if Floyd should have a roster spot in 2008. And while I'm sure Cooper is over-rated, it wouldn't hurt to have him work with the big league pitching coach. Rich Hill got the snot beaten out of him repeatedly before turning out to be decent. Give Floyd his shot. The Sox gave innings to Sisco and are carrying Bukvish as a primary setup man. Giving innings to Floyd isn't anymore ridiculous than that.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 11:26 PM) They hit rockets off him all night. The guy needs to grow a pair if you ask me. Having him as a fifth starter would probably lead to surgery for half the bullpen. He is no better than Felix Diaz, Arnie Munoz, the 5th starters of that ilk. On the bright side, he did pitch 1 inning tonight were he didn't allow a run. What he needs is a curveball (he didn't have one tonight), and an extra 2 MPH on his 2-seamer, or a changeup that is actually significantly slower than his fastball and not telegraphed to the hitter by him slowing down his delivery. I guess what I'm saying is that there are plenty of reasons you can find for Floyd pitching like crap and none of them have anything to do with him being testicularly challenged. When players fail, it's usually because they lack talent.

QUOTE(LukeGofannon @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 03:10 PM) Cedeno? Why would you want Ronny Cedeno who posted a .245/.271/.339 line in 2006 and a .097/.121/.323 (PA's limited in 07) line in 2007? Why? Someone explain that to me. He had .950 OPS in AAA this season and is OK defensively supposedly. He has a much, much better chance of being a big league player than whomever the Sox would draft with a compensation pick.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 02:17 PM) That would be a very poor trade. How about Cedeno & Murton for Dye? I think that's better than 2 draft picks. Of course, with Murton in LF and Sweeney in CF the Sox would need to find someone with some pop for RF....

QUOTE(Palehosefan @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 01:46 PM) Yankees drafted Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Eric Duncan, Ian Kennedy, Austin Jackson, and signed Jose Tabata. They went from a completely barren system to a loaded system in just a few years, and did it with mid to late 1st round picks and comp picks. Lots of good draft picks (although, they are pitchers and TINSTAAPP), and they also have excellent Latin American scouting. I have to disagree a little with the "Yankee prospects are hype" assertion. Even when everyone thought their system was barren, they produced Cano and Cabrera - two underhyped guys who are decent ballplayers. The prospect flameout rate isn't worse than anyone else. You want to talk about prospects being hype, let's talk about the Dodgers.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 11:32 AM) 2002: Ring, Reed, and Rupe all made the big leagues. Each was traded for other parts. To me it is ok to get guys who show promise that other teams want and you make the trades for things you need. Sox fans loved Reed and lots of teams would've traded for him, Sox got Garcia and that worked out. McCarthy was a 2002 pick. Basically, if you think Young and McCarthy were the 2 best Sox draftees since 2001, they happened while Laumann was the amateur scouting director.

QUOTE(heirdog @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 11:33 AM) Not sure that building a bullpen of power arms and having anemic drafts are the same argument in terms of "manning up" to the poor season. Granted Kenny's plan for the bullpen backfired but most of the recent trades seem to have worked out in the Sox favor. I remember a few months ago that Kenny said that his recent plan is not working but that was because he was trying to win now and retool a farm system that sucked (mostly due to weak drafts...and that is why he put the scouting dept on notice). So, Kenny's error was trying to fix two things at once and not really addressing either fully. So what he hoped was that he could retool the pitching and leave the position players status quo and hope the either produce more or continue to produce...neither has really happened. That doesn't excuse the poor drafts, which in the end fall on the scouting dept...if Kenny had options, he may not have had to try and retool the farm system and just focused on the present. Williams is the GM. The farm system is his responsibility. As Hopper said in A Bug's Life: "First rule of leadership: everything is your fault ..." I'm not saying that changes shouldn't have been made, I think they should have. But if Williams actually shifted blame to Duane Shaffer for the state of the organization, that's less than admirable.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 11:16 AM) I will post further on this in a few minutes, but Laumann was responsible for the drafts in 2001, 2002, and 2003. I will note who they drafted. Open for debate is how much latitude Laumann had because I believe (but am not 100% certain) he reported to Shaffer and not Williams directly. They "promoted" Shaffer to a Sr. Scouting/Advisory role when Laumann took the scouting director job. Yeah, I just saw who the Sox drafted in 2001 and 2002 and I guess those were better than the other drafts -- I retract my earlier statement. I was focused on the first round picks which were just as bad as any other draft. Still wish the Sox had gone outside the organization to bring someone new in.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 10:43 AM) So you're basing all this on what happened to a different set a pitchers almost 10 years ago? What if Gio does become a 3? Garland stays just the way he is. Vazquez continues to have a solid year. Buehrle doesn't magically lose 2-4 MPH. Floyd finally gets it, ect, ect. The team is bad right now. We all know it. However every aspect is bad, and this is just taking these to the extreme. There's a good chance that at least two of JV, Buehrle, Garland, and Danks are good again next season, I agree. But look at the Sox top pitching prospects: Floyd, Haeger, Gio, Egbert. Odds are none of those guys become impact pitchers in major leagues. Non of them is Homer Bailey, and Homer Bailey is not a sure thing. None of them is Mike Pelfrey and he's had trouble pitching in the bigs. Just because they are the Sox best prospects doesn't mean they are good prospects. Gio is probably the top one and he's a B prospect and Egbert was a C+ on Sickels site. A prospects like Adam Miller of the Tribe are a long way away from contributing in the majors, think about what that means for these guys. Haeger and Floyd are on the verge of being non-prospects. Contrary to conventional wisdom, the Sox do not have good depth in starting pitching. It's like 2 years ago when everyone thought the Sox had a lot of OF prospects. They actually had one decent one.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 10:21 AM) If we could get a package that includes Hughes or Joba Chamberlain than I think you have to make that deal. As far as Thornton goes, I'd try to deal him and see if you could get Ian Kennedy for him. mlbtraderumors (I know -- unreliable) says those guys are off the table. They think the Sox targeting Melky Cabrera or Robinson Cano in return for Garland.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 24, 2007 -> 10:26 AM) Well to be honest, with that set of drafts we were coming off horrible seasons and had some top 10 draft picks. Totally agree -- I wasn't defending Shaffer (he was a scout then, not in charge of the draft IIRC). Himes had great picks, but he picked the right guys. Just having a top 10 pick doesn't mean you'll get a player. I think there's a good chance we see an example of that next season with the Sox. Look at the 85 Draft: B.J. Surhoff, Will Clark, Bobby Witt, Barry Larkin.Kurt Brown, Barry Bonds. Guess what team picked Brown? Sure, he was a highly regarded HS catcher but the point remains that Himes picks made the bigs and were all-stars. He also did a good job with trades for the most part.

From Kevin Goldstein's chat: That's it -- barely worth mentioning, except that it underscores how bad the farm system is. The Sox best prospect has a ceiling as 3 or probably 4 starter. Ugh. Although it's possible that Egbert is now the Sox best prospect...