hitlesswonder

QUOTE(greg775 @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 09:04 PM) You try to put the best team out there every year. The Sox didn't try to do that this season. Instead they half-assed it and acquired pitchers for the future while still trying to compete. I don't want them to aspire to mediocrity.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 02:03 PM) Borchard is doing a decent job with Florida. And you are saying that Sweeney isn't even good enough to be a 4th outfielder? What about Rowand. He was once a sox prospect. Oh, and Thornton isn't a competent reliever? get real. I meant any recent prospect. Rowand came up in 2001, having to go back 6 years to find someone proves the point. Sweeney didn't play well enough to be a 4th OF in his time up this season. Thornton had a very good year last year. He has a 5.19 ERA this season and a career 4.40 ERA. As a reliever. He obviously has talent, but I don't think it's wrong to say he hasn't been competent this season...

I like Jenks a lot. He's been effective throwing less than 98 MPH which is impressive. The question is only whether or not he can be a part of the next competitive Sox team. IF you think the Sox can contend in 2008 or 2009, I think you'd want to keep him. If it will take longer than that, you have to weigh the risk of injury into the equation, as well as if he cold bring in trade something harder to acquire than a closer. The Tigers went to series last year with Jones and the Indians are winning with (despite?) Borowski this season. If Jenks could get you Salty and Escobar, it's something to consider.

Trade him now! Peak value!

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 11:14 AM) Ok, you do that then pal. I can't imagine why it is you want to give the man $56 million if he's not even as solid as Oliver Perez or John Maine then. I'm sure neither guy will have the career Buehrle has had. And it's a strong possibility Buehrle will be better than both next season. I'm taking about this season. Perez's BAA is like .207 this season (3.14 ERA? something like that) and Maine has an ERA of 2.74. They are in the NL in a pitcher's park, but right now I'd have a hard time sitting either one for Buehrle. Maine and Perez are just having great seasons. It happens. Esteban Loaiza had 2003. It doesn't I think they'll be better than Buehrle over the next 3 or 4 seasons.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 1, 2007 -> 09:59 AM) Good luck signing any free agents if you're not going to give NTC. Between this policy and the Boras bulls***, it really makes you wonder how we'll ever get our talent level back up in today's market. I hope KW doesn't think he can build up from the farm system, as that could take like 5 years. No, the Sox have one more way to get talent: cheap free agents undervalued because injury, etc. Seriously, the thing that is most depressing about the Sox is that they have so limited the way they can acquire talent. I don't know of any other team that does this or is so risk-averse. No Boras clients (draft or FA), no arb offers to FAs that might bring extra picks or could be accepted, no drafting hard signs or players demanding more than slot money, no big FAs signed at "crazy" market price, no pitchers signed longer than 3 years, no keeping guys by giving put NTC for full contract, no keeping guys whose 5/10 rights kick in. The Sox are counting on brilliant FA signings and a strong minor league system. And this year that strategy has given the Sox Erstad and Andy Gonzalez. The future isn't bright.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 02:28 PM) You have the World Series on the line and you're going to pitch John Maine or Oliver Perez over Mark Buehrle? Yes. They've both been as good or better than Buehrle this year. And both have better stuff (particularly Perez). The Mets don't need Buehrle.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 11:13 PM) We really are going to send out everyone but Danks and Fields and start all over. That's the one of the better case scenarios. It would be worse if KW keeps Vazquez and Garland and Jenks and Konerko and lets their value erode rather than dealing them now (Konerko's 5 and 10 rights kick in next season, so the Sox need to deal him if they are consistent in philosophy). And the situation will be worse still if the Sox go out and grab second-tier free agents like Rowand and Eckstein. I'm sure no on cares a whit but I think I was definitely wrong to suggest KW be fired for the Buehrle fiasco. Not signing him for more than the team is willing to risk may be justifiable. But if KW doesn't clean house, if he fails to sell high on Garland and Jenks, and especially if he brings in veterans to make some half-assed claim to competing in 2008 then I think calling for a change is justified. Because there is no middle road to take and compete while rebuilding when the Sox farm system has nothing to offer.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 08:45 PM) The Sox aren't a lock to draw 35,000+ a game when they suck, like the Red Sox and Cubs. Nor do they own their own TV network, like the Yankees and Mets. Being located in a major market doesn't ensure top-tier spending ability. I understand that. But the Sox, to me, seem incredibly risk-averse. I'm told that sometimes you need to take some risk in order to get a big return. And I'm not even talking about a big, big FA signing. Just offer arbitration to Riske and get some picks or a reliever you could have used anyway. Stepping up, they could have drafted Porcello. That risks more money, but nothing close a Zito contract. For goodness sake, KC took a shot with Gil Meche. That may still turn out to have been a bad idea, but it may have been a great signing. I know, it's not my money but I'd like it if the Sox were a little more adventurous.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 07:31 PM) AAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaabsolutely NOTHING, just like I said on page three of this thread. This always was bulls***. I'm glad to know that the organization hasn't changed its stripes any. Yeah, they still think of themselves as a small market team. It's funny that I would have been less upset if they had just gone and traded Buehrle without the farce that has gone on these last few days. If it is a dealbreaker to include a 2 year NTC, it seems clear the Sox wanted to sign Buehrle to a below market deal and then trade him. There was no actual desire to bring Buehlre back. Realizing that the Sox rebuilding is going to take 4 years and deciding it's not worth signing Buehrle...that's probably smart. But it seems like the Sox tried to exploit Buehrle's desire to stay to make a better trade. The only real disturbing thing about this episode is that it underscores how the Sox severely limit the ways they can acquire talent. They don't deal with Boras clients -- free agents or draft. They don't like offering arbitration so they avoid extra picks and signing bonuses. They won't draft hard signs or pay above slot money. They won't pay market rate for free agents. They won't sign guys to below market deals if they are close to being 5&10 players. It essentially relies on the farm system and cheap FAs to perform extremely well. It's tough to make that work with terrible drafting and development.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 10:52 AM) I agree. For an aging team on the decline with really talented youthful competitors, we can't afford to commit 15-20% of our payroll to one player and not have the option to trade them unless they are named Santana/Pujols. That said, when Buehrle is traded, it really is imperative KW gets an impressive haul. It should really not be that difficult considering the number of teams in contention and the market for starting pitchers at the moment. Alright, I'm over my disappointment now. You are right. The Sox simply need to clean house and trade every valuable pitcher they have (really, the only assets the organization has). In particular, Garland, Vazquez, and Jenks need to get moved as they will bring the biggest return.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 02:26 AM) Gwynn's not very good. The last thing we need to be doing is trading an actual competent reliever for a 4th outfielder. We have like 50 of those in our organization right now. Thornton isn't a competent reliever and I have yet to see a Sox prospect that was good enough to be a 4th OF.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 09:58 AM) As for the Jon Adkins, well is Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd going to be Jon Adkins? You think Philly would like to have those 2 back now for Freddy Garcia wouldn't you? Gonzalez and Floyd haven't done anything for the Soxyet. Pardon me for not feeling assured that a good month in AAA means Floyd will be effective at the major league level. That trade is still open to criticism given the return Williams got. Jennings brought so much more from Houston than the Sox got from PHI that you have to think KW could have gotten more. QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 10:19 AM) One more thing....if we're not willing to make this deal happen for Buehrle, you might as well go ahead and trade Garland then. He's going to want/get in the 14 million dollar range also, and I'm sure he'll want a NTC. Absolutely. Garland needs to be traded now while he's at max value with over a year left on his deal. He'll be long gone by the time the Sox compete again and he and Jenks both need to get moved this season. QUOTE(GreenSox @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 10:19 AM) Your first clause may be right, but withdrawing from negotiations drives down trade value. Originally, I think they were hoping to drive up his value at the end of last week as well as look like they tried to sign him. But yes, KW and the Sox have managed too devalue Buehrle and poison things to the point that they have to move for a meager return now. Great job by the organization.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 02:26 AM) I know it will never happen, but KW should be fired for the way things happened over the last week. He's now lost even more leverage, as other teams know we won't re-sign Buehrle. I agree. Williams should be fired. Whatever the goal of this fiasco was, it was handled incompetently.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 01:39 AM) What a joke. 4 years $56M is a god damn steal and they f*** it all up by not giving him the NTC, give me a f***ing break. I wouldn't even have been all that upset if it came out that the sticking point was the 5th year or Buehrle was looking for $70M+ but a NTC? How pathetic. Well, the White Sox Organization will pay dearly for this one. They simply don't want to sign him. It was just an attempt by the Sox to try to look good for the fans and drive up trade value.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 12:29 AM) If Buehrle is dealt, my #1 wish is that KW get an MLB ready leadoff man in return so I never have to see Podsednik play again. A leadoff man that plays a middle-infield position or CF would be huge. I worry that KW thinks he's already done that with Richar. Likeliest thing is Erstad leading off next season (or Eckstein if he's signed). I really doubt Pods will be back unless he excels the rest of this season. QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 12:33 AM) handing Crede the 3B job out of ST. I also doubt they want to let him walk without receiving some sort of compensation. That's probably true. Payroll will be low enough they can take the risk & hope Crede plays well enough to be dealt by the deadline.

QUOTE(Buehrle>Wood @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 12:28 AM) I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I know you are joking on one hand; however I would not be surprised to see our team resemble that opening day. I think it's the most likely projection I've seen. Although I think Pods will be gone and Sweeney or Fields will be in LF. And I wouldn't be shocked to see Crede non-tendered.

QUOTE(whitesox1976 @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 12:08 AM) I hope Buehrle will resign but as each day goes by I am starting to think it won't happen. Gosh I hope I'm wrong on that. Rumor (courtesy WSI and I saw it posted here as well) has it that Buehrle rejected the Sox last offer & Cowley will report that in tomorrow's Sun-Times. Seems much more likely than Buehrle accepting a 4/60 contract.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 29, 2007 -> 11:56 PM) The payroll will not go up next season unless the investors decide to dip into their own pockets. Based on an estimate of this year's attendance (which will determine next year's payroll, just as '06 attendance lead to the '07 payroll) I'd say the team payroll for '08 will be in the $85-$90M range with $90M being very likely. That's about a $6M decrease from this season. I hope it's lower than $90M. If it's that high, it means KW will have gone out and signed a bunch of second or third-tier free agents (Rowand, Eckstein, etc.) and potentially given up draft choices. It's better just to play the Knights roster next season rather than do that.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 29, 2007 -> 11:27 PM) I hate saying this, but Thornton has pitched better this season then his numbers would indicate. And I hope we don't trade a lefty who throws as hard as he does for another questionable OF'er. Gwynn is better then Borchard, but that was a dumb, dumb, DUMB trade by the Mariners. If the Sox were going to compete for anything in the next few years, I might agree. But Thornton isn't young and will not be on the next competitive Sox team. A young player under Sox control for 5 or 6 seasons might be able to contribute to a good team down the road. And I also think a possible starting position player is worth more than a middle reliever (usually).

QUOTE(VicRattlehead @ Jun 29, 2007 -> 11:31 PM) Just by player raises and such. For instance Uribe for one will make more money if the Sox excersize his option. Chances of the Sox exercising that option are virtually zero.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 29, 2007 -> 11:12 PM) Now, I like Tony Gwynn Jr. and would be glad to have him and hope he could be our leadoff man, but ain't no way I would give up Logan or Thornton for him, and I would hope KW wouldn't either. Thornton has been lit up this year. I'd trade him for a CF prospect easy. I like Logan too, but for a position prospect that might be able to actual hit .270 at the big league level I'd be willing to trade him as well.

QUOTE(Beastly @ Jun 29, 2007 -> 11:10 PM) I mean, the fact is that, yes, the payroll is going to rise next year, but it'd be better than sitting here with the crap I see out on that field. I think you'll see something different on the field. At the least I expect Fields, Sweeney, and Richar to be starting and the Floyd and Gonzalez to be in the rotation. And there will likely be more changes. I would expect payroll to drop down to $80M next season rather than rise.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 29, 2007 -> 08:46 PM) DLS belongs in Birmingham, or at the very least, Winston-Salem. I don't know anything, but I think they should move him to AA. BHAM's park is somewhat forgiving which might help lessen the jump. His arm only has so many pitches in it. There's no sense wasting them in low-A where there's nothing left for him to do.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 29, 2007 -> 01:45 PM) We arent going to trade Jon, hes our best pitcher and improves every year. It would be stupid not to make him a cornerstone of our rotation for the next several years. I like Garland a lot, but the Sox aren't going to sign him long-term. It would take more than 3 years...and more money than the Sox will lay out. Given that, they should move him now -- he's at peak value pitching well and signed through next season. The Sox won't be competitive in 2008 anyway.