hitlesswonder

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 29, 2007 -> 10:01 PM) If the Sox do let Buehrle go, we need to let Contreras, Iguchi, Dye, and Thome go also, as it means we're in full rebuilding mode. I just hope KW doesn't act like a pussy. It seems pretty likely that Buehrle is gone. After Zito, he's not going to sign a 4 year $60M contract. I can only think this was an elaborate pantomime by the Sox front office to save face. Trading him for a B prospect or taking 2 draftees picked by the Sox scouts is probably a toss up. After this media fiasco, they probably have to move just to end this circus. I agree the Sox should rip everything up. Trade anyone other than Danks that can get a decent return. They need to trade Jenks. He's the one guy that would get actual big league talent in return and the Sox won't be needing him. He's a free agent in 3 years, and the Sox won't be in contention before that period is done. They need to move him now before his health fails.

QUOTE(NCsoxfan @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 11:53 PM) If there is more truth to the article than lie, then I am very disappointed. Maybe I was expecting too much from our players, but that article sounds like KW is getting laughed at. Am I reading it wrong? No, I think that's right (sort of -- I doubt there's actual laughing). Given the FA market prices, teams aren't willing to part with young, cheap prospects like they used to be. And Buehrle is not a Santana-like ace and lacks dominating stuff (Minaya said he would only trade for a "power arm"). Teams just won't shell out for a 3 mont rental of a non-dominating starting pitcher. As for Contreras, I think everyone can see that his stuff isn't what it once was. And given over 2 years of below average pitching, people distrust Vazquez. And also, it's spin from the other organizations. It tells their fans that they didn't pull the trigger becuase the price was too high and helps deaden the market. That being said, the Sox won't get much talent in their firesale unless they trade Jenks or Garland.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 11:32 PM) What article are you referring to? I'm interested in reading this. I find it pretty ludicrous anyone can predict a loss of 6 MPH to a guys fastball. I can see someone predicting arm problems from someone but based on what I've seen from Poreda I don't see any major flaw in his deliver that would make him more prone to an arm injury than any other pitcher in baseball. The article is here. I actually misquoted slightly, he just says he will lose his mid-90s velocity quickly or shred his arm. The review of Poreda is just this: You can see the video of Poreda by looking at the original article at THT.

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 11:24 PM) After two games, Poreda has pitched 9 innings, giving up 5 hits, walking 1, and striking out 10. He's had a much better start to his pro career than McCulloch did. The two hits he gave up tonight were a HR and a double, with the double coming after an error (Piaml now has 7 on the young season), so one of the runs he allowed was unearned. Any opinion on the THT article that said Poreda was a sure thing to lose 6 MPH off his fastball or shred his arm?

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 06:03 PM) FYI - Richar player ss and 2B in the B-backs organization. Throwing issues caused them to start focusing him more at 2b which is where the Sox have him. For you discussion: What are the odds that this is our lead off may say ... April 2008? Just a hunch, I would venture to say better than 50%. I don't know about leadoff, I think he's at 95% to be the starting 2B in 2008.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 09:59 PM) I could see teams not being interested in Jose for obvious reason, but not Javy? Now that is complete bull. Javy has been great for the past 2 halves. But you know what, I don't care as I want Javy to stay on this team. Other teams spin just like the Sox do. Vazquez currently has a 3.95 ERA pitching in the AL and the Cell. He may not be an ace, but right now he's a top 20 starter in the AL and is durable. He's no ace, but he'd be attractive pickup for a number of teams. And his contract is pretty decent by the standards of the day.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 01:01 PM) I can't imagine any way that Anderson will be a starter with the Sox again. Also, I think soxtalk is the only place where anyone considers Getz to be a possible major league starter. I think that Lucy is not viewed as future starter outside of soxtalk as well. QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 01:46 PM) Just asking - because maybe there is a chance that he improved. I would really like to see this kid play. He's probably the Sox starting 2B next season, so I think you'll get your wish. QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 03:22 PM) wow, sounds like a SS I know very well. Yeah, Richar and Uribe are probably about equal on defense...sure.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 03:40 PM) Not really. Floyd is 24, and when Jon Garland turned 24, he had just finished his 4th MLB season, 2nd straight season at about 190 innings, In my post I added in the numbers from 2004 (Garland was still 24 during that season). Probably fairer to exclude those, but as you point out Jon had still been a very useful pitcher by the time he was old as Floyd is now.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 02:35 PM) Would Gavin Floyd versus Jon Garland comparisons be fair here? It took Jon a while to really get "it". One of the knocks against Jon was his mental make up and his propensity for the big inning early on. Stuff was never a question with Garland, just whether or not he had the stones to be a big time pitcher. Thoughts? By the time Garland was Floyd's age he had pitched approximately 800 innings in the bigs with around a 4.75 ERA. Garland got to the majors and stuck at a very young age, and contrary to lots of people's perception he was still a useful pitcher when he was young. He just wasn't Verlander.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 11:35 AM) Are you sure? Maybe Kenny didn't like what was out there? Or whoever he was going to trade with wanted to gut the Sox limited farm system or current roster? I am 95% sure Kenny tried to trade for a new leadoff hitter when the market when through the roof for fa's. Neither of us know what would have been possible as far as trades go, so it's probably not worth arguing about. To me, the two outfield slots were holes that KW failed to fill and I think he had probably had options (e.g. trading Garcia or McCarthy for an OF). As it turns out, the rest of the team outside the SPs have all sucked so it doesn't matter for 2007. But bringing Pods back for 2008 doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 11:18 AM) Not to mention the fact that in his limited time, he has been productive. So, if you want to rail on someone, he should be weeeelllll down the list this year. The key phrase here is "limited time". Relying on fragile players and having no decent backup plan is a bad move. Pods may have a .377 OBP, but thats in 15 games and 55 at-bats. Look at the Sox LF (and CF) production as a whole. Both have to be among the worst in baseball, if not the worst. And that is a direct result of relying on Pods (and Erstad) and having aterrible minor league system. I'm not railing on Pods -- I don't dislike him or blame him for anything. But Williams mad a mistake bringing Pods back. It's true the FA options were not palatable, but a trade was still a possibility. Here's all I'm saying: asking Pods to be a full-season leadoff hitter at this point is like relying on Kerry Wood for 200 innings. It's not a good idea.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 09:55 AM) He has mediocre tools and constant groin strains (definitely a good thing for a leadoff hitter) I don't want to see this lineup rely on a guy like that. To just to back Kalapse up, Pods injury problems alone make him too risky to rely on. He's not young (31) and it would be foolish to rely on him again for 2008 given how fragile he is. When he has an OBP of .360 and isn't getting picked off, Pods is a valuable player. When he has an OBP of .330 (like last season) and gets caught stealing with regularity (enough to effectively reduce his OBP to .295 or something close to that), he's not valuable. Especially because he is poor in the field and can't play CF. That last problem is particularly damaging as the Sox fill CF with another subpar bat meaning that both LF and CF are poor offensive positions. The Sox offense can't afford that. Pods has hit well when healthy this year, but he had a year and a half stretch of not doing so before that and has been hurt every year for the last 3 seasons. My vote is to bring in a new leadoff man.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 28, 2007 -> 08:22 AM) If I didn't know better, I might think that this is a ploy by the Sox to make it look like they tried their best to re-sign him, but that they just couldn't agree on the numbers. The Sox and KW have never been real media-savvy. This could easily be a ham-handed attempt to make Buehrle look like "the bad guy". I wouldn't be surprised if a trade is already in place and this is just a farce to soften the blow to Sox fans and placate the media. In fact, I go ahead and say that I think Buehrle made his last start for the Sox last night. Otherwise, why publicly announce a deadline? It makes no sense other than for PR.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jun 27, 2007 -> 12:01 PM) Whether Buehrle is signed or not (ignoring everything within the last 13 pages), I would then expect Garland to be traded. Regardless of Williams labeling him unavailable, we NEED an influx of young talent on this team somehow. Someone with value has to be dealt. Contreras won't be enough. I'd agree. I think you can count on at least 2 starting pitchers from the Sox being traded.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 27, 2007 -> 11:24 AM) Might it be something started by the Sox and Buehrle's camp to try and show he would have been willing to take less money to stay here? In the end, KW will trade Buehrle and say the package was just to good to not do. Unfortunately, with this rumor seemingly being BS, it's just another s***ty moment for Sox fans this year. It's almost surely a move by the Sox to use the media to bump up Buehrle's trade value.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jun 27, 2007 -> 10:50 AM) True, but "off the trading block" is a quite specific statement and they're def. giving us that. Both fathom and Crasnick from ESPN have heard that Buehrle is not off the market. So I think right now, nothing has changed. The media stories could still just be a move to drive up Buehrle's trade value.

I would not be against trading Konerko for prospects at all. He gets paid a lot of money for a lot of years and is likely in decline. He has a .780 OPS this year, isn't that great in the field and plays first base. A competent organization should be able to fill 1B with better production than that for a lot cheaper. Trading PK now would probably be selling low -- he could easliy still have another couple of .850 to .900 OPS years. But to get his salary off the books, I think it might be worth it. But as someone pointed out, Paul advises Williams about what moves to make. So unless he suggested trading himself I doubt anything comes of this.

QUOTE(GreenSox @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 10:37 PM) No reason to believe that the report that the Sox planted this info is any more valid than the other reports. ESPN is about as objective when it comes to the Red Sox as the Tribune is when it comes to the Cubs. Rosenthal is a pretty respected reporter isn't he? He indicated the Red Sox were interested. Who knows, maybe Law's report was plated by the Red Sox to drive down the market....

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 27, 2007 -> 12:09 AM) Free agency alone is not going to save this old, broken down team. I don't see what likely free agent signing will have much impact, if any. Rowand? Eckstein? I don't see anyone else out there likely to come to the Sox for the amount of money that can be offered. $87M is a good guess (or at least the midpoint of Kalapse's range) at next year's payroll. That's not enough money to devote $15M a year to a player. Not when the team has so many holes. A complete teardown job which trades players like Jenks, Garland, Vazquez, Contreras, and Konerko (if anyone will take the last 2) is justifiable -- the minor leagues are barren and there's no other means to get talent than trade. KW has said he won't do it, but a Marlins-style rebuild isn't ridiculous to contemplate. It could easily be the best move.

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 12:46 PM) we have to be able to get something better than this. Teams who say they arent gonna give much are blowing smoke. I don't know if they can get anything better. But at this point I think the Sox should just take the picks unless they get an overwhelming offer. And Reyes and Rodriguez are not that.

QUOTE(RibbieRubarb @ Jun 26, 2007 -> 12:49 PM) Seriously. NO GM will ever trade 17 of their 25 man roster for unproven players no matter their upside. Prospects are just that...prospects. Don't fall in love with them just because they aren't on our team. Well, where will the Sox get the talent to make another run at the playoffs? Not from their minor league system. Not through free agency (the Sox will not pay the market price for top free agents -- they haven't since the ill-fated signings of Belle and Navarro). The fastest way for the Sox to get competitive is to acquire top AA and AAA talent. They can't do that by trading only Buehrle. A larger firesale has a lot to recommend it.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 04:16 PM) Are you trying to be as pessimistic as possible about the trade packages? I'm one of the biggest supporters of bashing stupid message board trade proposals, but it seems like you're going out of your way to make the trade options seem as bad as possible. I guarantee you that you're underestimating what Buehrle can bring back in a trade. It's possible I'm too trusting of the spin other organizations produce when they talk about trading for a rental. We'll see if Minaya gives up Milledge...maybe he would. Hearing Steve Phillps say that the days of trading star prospects for FAs-to-be is over makes me think I might be on the wrong side of this. Agreeing with Philllips isn't usuaully a good sign....

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 04:06 PM) Bahaha....the two draft picks would be better. Thanks but no thanks. The two draft picks would undoubtably be better than that -- it's a lousy trade for the Sox. But no team will give up even a single top 40 prospect for Buehrle and KW wants "major league ready" players. To me, that means mediocre youngish veterans (not that Heilman is young). I just think Sox fans are tremendously overestimating the market for Buehrle.

QUOTE(Omar Minaya @ Jun 25, 2007 -> 12:52 AM) i understand that you're not going to be very receptive to the idea of not being to get as much back for buerhle as you'd like, as that's all you have to look forward to this year. but don't worry, there's always next year, and you guys definitely have a young, solid nucleus to build around. oh... All good points...I think a Heilman & Gotay package for Buehrle would be about market value. And yes, the White Sox do have the worst young talent & minor league system in either league. It's sad that I can only agree....

I think the Red Sox fans trade proposals are a lot more realistic than what I see here. KW likes Crisp and wants "major league" talent for Buehrle. If Theo offers Crisp and Hansen I think it's a done deal.