RockRaines

Wow, people really are that bored.

end thread.

I do not believe there is any truth to that other than in your brain only.

Have more payroll flexibility to afford Manny.......

Otherwise known as my mother's bday.

QUOTE(TheOcho @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 04:25 PM) How is that nuts? He must have taken his crazy pills before posting.

QUOTE(bigruss22 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 03:32 PM) If like you siad, beurhle or contreras gethurt, then one of those young guys we acquired may fill in, or we have tracey, phillips, haeger, liotta, etc to fill in some spot starts. The two guys we just got for Garcia are better than Tracey, Phillips, liotta, Broadway, mcullughtwhatever.

QUOTE(SoxFan562004 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 04:02 PM) http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writ...coop/index.html 2nd page of this story says KW is trying to cut payroll!??!?!?! I mean, I guess with the FG deal it is possible, but I would really want an explination from him or JR why they are cutting payroll this year Looks to me like speculation from someone who is trying to give insight when they dont know enough about the situation.

All of the ESPN baseball analysts love this deal as well, and I feel comfortable in both of our opinions. I feel sorry for anyone crying over it. OUr team gets better THIS year and in the future. QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 03:19 PM) WTF are you talking about? BMac was a below average reliever last year. I'd be willing to bet that Haeger or Floyd do better than BMac in the bullpen last year. The sixth man in our bullpen isn't going to make us "significantly worse" heading into next year, either way. Also, you talk about how we now lack starting pitching depth. Haeger is unproven, yes, but so are most teams' sixth and seventh starters. That's not unique to the Sox; it's either that or veteran retread types like Tim Redding. I'd say our depth at the starting pitching spot is, at worst, average. Our current sixth and seventh starters (Haeger and Phillips) are two guys coming off of seasons with ERAs bordering 3.00 in a hitters haven at Charlotte. You're picking nits here. Uh yeah, plus BMAC>Garcia in the rotation so its not really a fair comparison.

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 01:24 PM) I don't think Coop or any other pitching coach can look at a pitcher and have a good idea if he can fix him. Coop has been able to help some pitchers and not others. Coop gets the pitchers that are on the roster and does his best to make them better. He doesn't know how fixable they are, and frankly neither does KW. KW saw a lot of talent (Floyd does have great stuff) and he knows he has a good pitching coach. KW is gambling that Floyd's talent + Coops talent = a greatly improved Floyd. That's how it works. Yeah, except Coop said he saw the flaw in Thornton's delivery which played a large part in us acquiring him, but yeah, thats not how it works. Where do you even get this stuff? Does it just come to you?

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 12:23 PM) It is silly to say that I blindly criticize the Sox when I give thoughtful, meaningful, and well supported criticism whenever I do criticize. wait, wait, but roto said, but roto said........ Funny how "certain" people say that all experts hate this trade, yet do not trust any experts POV on the players we received. I Looooove selective reading.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 11:25 AM) I didnt hate the deal. I hated going to the cell last year with Garcia making a bunch of starts on my 13 game plan, and constantly watch out for flying homers hitting the poor spectators in the OF. I hated watching the radar gun thinking it was broke, Nope Eric Bedard 94 mph, Freddy 86mph. Man, I saw him give up so many long ones this year, it was unreal.

I repeat BMAC in the rotation>Garcia in the rotation. We get better immediately this year. ANd with the spects, next year. Its pretty black and white people.

QUOTE(RX Bandits @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 11:19 AM) Huh? explain the logic of Mccarthy wont do better that Garcia...but if someone goes down he can pitch? its like saying he sucks....but hes a top notch fill-in if someone gets hurt? as for talent, I must have a boatload of talent cause I can throw 85 MPH. Using the word "talent" is a cop-out for really saying "i hate this deal because i know nothing about the two prospects in return." I for one, like the move. Remember people, the market to get an outfielder sucked as well, and I bet teams were asking for a lot for a power hitting OF. This move helps us down the line. Great post BTW. I think making an informed decision about the situation is alot more effective than just ranting.

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 11:12 AM) I could list the various rumors, but I won't. Suffice to say that numerous reports and just plain common sense when viewing that worse pitchers were garnering much more money tells you that Garcia was very valuable. And yes, it was for one season, but for a contending team, a full season of a good SP for relatively cheap money is worth a lot. Go ahead and list the "rumors" I can make up a few myself if you like. And yes, pitcher were garnering money on the free agent market, so is makes prospects and cheap pitching more valuable, especially when locked up for several years, so what exactly was your point there? That we received fair value because we got cheap young pitching in return? I wish you were our GM, so we could have held on to all of our pitchers all offseason then only getting some picks in return which may pay off in 5 years, but most likely wont, that would have been AWESOME!!! Oh and in the same season, most likely ruining BMAC for yet another year!!! Wooooo!!!

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 11:10 AM) 1. Less talent on the team (and organization now). 2. BMac in his first full season in the majors won't do better than Garcia would have done (about the same, I think). 3. When a SP gets injured (and this happens to basically every team, every year), we'll have no major league ready replacement to fill in, because we've lost our SP depth. So you are hanging your opinion of the trade on the fact that BMAC wont do any better than Freddy did for us?

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 11:10 AM) Welcome aboard...thanks for your input, always good to hear from someone who got to watch Gio pitch. In Freddy's case if he comes back with his old velocity you guys have one of the best pitchers in the NL on your hands. However, if he doesn't...you'll have a guy who flashes signs a couple games while at other times gets absolutely lit up. That said when on, Freddy is fun to watch. I wonder how focused Freddy will be not being on a serious contender, pitching in the minor leagues of the MLB. If he couldnt get himself up for the competition in the ALC, will he EVER be able to in the NL?

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 11:08 AM) I would have traded Garcia for some player or players who would have helped the team now. A pitcher of Garcia's quality who is as inexpensive as he is in 2007 is worth a hell of a lot in this market. KW could and should have moved Garcia for more than prospects. He could have easily gotten an OF upgrade and a decent prospect. From who then? Since you were at the winter meetings, tell me who this deal was that KW didnt take? Dont you understand that Freddy is only affordable on a team for ONE year, dont you understand that?

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 11:04 AM) You are drunk on the kook-aid. You worked really hard to spin this horrible trade into something positive. We're worse than before the trade. And these prospects are certainly not sure things for the future. First of all, I never drink the Sox Kool Aid so you can stop with that being your only defense for your position. Please provide me with the reasons how we are worse than we were before the trade.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 11:00 AM) So put on your GM hat, what would of you done. And if you talk about signing Garcia for a long term deal, take the hat off because you are fired. He doesnt understand that BMAC in the rotation > Garcia in the rotation Keith law's take: The White Sox added some younger pitching to their system, one a solid prospect, one a tarnished prospect who's a nice high-beta flyer. Gio Gonzalez -- technically the player to be named right now, although it will be announced officially after the Rule 5 draft on Thursday morning -- is the solid prospect, and one with whom the White Sox are familiar, having drafted him in 2004 and traded him to the Phils last winter for Jim Thome. Gonzalez has an average fastball but two good offspeed pitches, a mid-70s curve with good two-plane break and a straight changeup on which he maintains his arm speed very well. Still just 21 years old, Gonzalez's primary negatives are his control, which was poor all year, and his poise; he rattles easily when something goes wrong behind him, and is prone to losing the strike zone at inopportune moments. Given his age, throwing arm, and quality offspeed stuff, though, he's a very good prospect and a good return on Garcia. Gavin Floyd is a good lottery ticket for the White Sox to play. The fourth pick in the vaunted 2001 draft, Floyd's career went off the rails when the Phils rushed him to the majors in 2004. Floyd's calling card is a near-12-6 curveball with a big late break, with a solid-average fastball and an average changeup. His command, never great, has evaporated each time he's come up to the big leagues, and this year his control took a hit as well. He turns 24 in January and has a good arm; that's the sort of second guy you always want to acquire in a trade, especially when a change of scenery appears to be part of the solution.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:58 AM) With the glimpses we've gotten of what BMac can do in the starting rotation, I think just getting him in there makes us better. I couldnt agree more.

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:56 AM) And others will reject any criticism of this organization. No matter how bad of a trade KW makes, some fans will work really hard to spin it into a positive. I know this one took a hell of a lot of work. Or some fans just dont look at the big picture of the game called baseball. Even if KW would have broken Freddy's legs and inserted BMAC into the rotation, our team would have improved. Trading a free-agent-to-be who had declining skills and no place in the rotation for 2 young affordable arms, was a nice move.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:53 AM) The one prospect is named Hirsch who already pitched a bit last year, and was scheduled to be the Astro 5th starter this year. He is one of the best young pitchers in baseball, has a blazing fastball and is 6'8 and 250 pounds. Lets stop acting like this is just some conspiracy to ruin the sox. KW probably wants to win more than you do. If he is making a trade its because he believes it makes us better. Man Hirsch is so good, that trade would have hurt us a bit this year, but REALLY would have paid off in the enxt 5.

QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:48 AM) You actually think this was a good trade??? He traded a quality SP for two decent prospects. Gio had a poor year in his first year in AA in 2006. He's nowhere near major league ready (think 2 or 3 years for his debut and then probably a year or two before he hits his stride, if ever). Floyd was a top prospect 3 YEARS AGO. And his value has dropped steadily since then. These guys aren't even blue chip prospects. Like all prospects, they are just maybes and not even great maybes at that. This would be a decent trade for a rebuilding team who had essentially given up on 2007 already. I don't think KW should have given up on 2007. Yes I think it was. We needed to but BMAC in the rotation, at this point he is better than freddy and was wasted in the pen last year. Because of this pressing need we had to deal someone. Freddy is a FA at the end of the season and would have been a mistake to sign to an extension. We just got Floyd, who was a top prospect 2 years ago, but fizzled a little at the major league level. In baseball circles he is though of as a possible late bloomer somewhat like Garland was. His only major flaw is control, which cooper seems to be good at fixing. We also got Gio back, who immediately becomes our top pitching prospect once again, and sets us up for his emergence in 2 years. The phillies received a rent a player who will leave after this season or resign for around 16-17 million a year. Not only that but we saved 10 million bucks that can immediately be plugged back into the team. Is the team better than yesterday? Yes. Does this trade help us in the future, yes it does. Sounds like a plan to me.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:41 AM) Apparently GMs around the league are aware of Freddy's diminishing skills as well. I was a big Freddy supporter earlier this year but when it became apparent that his velocity drop wasn't temporary, I jumped ship. It's too bad, because he's a gamer. Still, I'm unpleasantly surprised that KW couldn't get more in return. Its not only his age, but he is a rent a player, Philly basically traded us two guys for the hope that Freddy may get them somewhere this year. When they dont make it again, they basically will be left with nothing. QUOTE(SoxHawk1980 @ Dec 7, 2006 -> 10:44 AM) You are confident that more SP trades aren't happening? The Sox were at least working on a deal to trade Garland for prospects. Do you think KW is done shopping SP's? I don't. They were also working on deals to bring A-rod here, and Barry Bonds, and this guy, and that guy. Kenny is well aware that he needs 5 starters this year, and we just dealt a player that we wanted to get rid of. Maybe step away from the ledge and look at the big picture. This trade not only made our team better this year, it made us better for the next 5. It also freed up 10 million dollars that may be allocated for a player, or give us some room to sign Mark to an extension.