RockRaines

QUOTE(Palehosefan @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 04:56 PM) Not to be picky, but PSU had the best class in the Big 10, atleast on paper. But like usual, we will see who really had the best classes in the nation 3 years from now. I have PSU as third behind OSU and Michigan. 7, 9 and 10 respectively, am I wrong?

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 05:15 PM) My thoughts on this whole thing: Some people are just way to sensitive. Maybe some people just arent sensitive enough to other people's cultures?

QUOTE(ZoomSlowik @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 05:03 PM) I have a couple of problems with this whole thing. One, the NCAA decided to put this rule in and it really only affects one school in Division IA. Several other schools won their appeals (can't remember who, the only one of note is FSU), but the Illini have been unsuccessful so far based mostly on the fact that there aren't any Illini left to gripe and/or buy off. Tribe approval isn't really the greatest criterion to use for whether or not it is okay. I can see where people that are against the Chief are coming from, but I just don't really think that it's that big a deal, and it kind of sucks that Illinois seems to be being singled out. Well, there are two errors in your argument. 1. The peoria tribe are direct decendant from the illini and they have expressed their desire to rid the school of chief illiniwek, I posted the link to their letter in my previous post. They have ordered a cease and decist to U of I on the use of the Chief. 2. If you consider being "singled out" being one of 17 schools who faced removing Native American Imagery, then yes they have been. I also listed several schools that have been forced to change more than just their halftime performer, but their actual mascot as well.

QUOTE(sayitaintso @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 04:28 PM) So Long Cheif! Looks more like a Chad.

OSU, good recruiting class as usual. Tops in the big ten.

QUOTE(knightni @ Jan 31, 2006 -> 07:04 PM) Hey Gene, can I trouble you for some clean urine?

I understand some of the U of I sports fans not having their mascot dance at halftime being upset. But its hard to argue that the chief "honors" native americans. Here are some links to U of I dept pages that are against the chief. http://www.english.uiuc.edu/-announcements..._illiniwek.html http://www.retirethechief.org/Documents/anthropology.html http://www.sip.uiuc.edu/chief/ Here is a link to a letter from the Peoria Tribe who are direct decendants of the Illini http://aistm.org/2000peoria.htm

Is there anyone who doesnt have emotional attachment to this Character in this argument other than me?

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 04:03 PM) Chief Illiniwek wears an authentic Sioux outfit, given to the school by Frank Fool's Crow in 1982. Once the student who portrays the Chief puts on the outfit, he doesn't speak. It is not an authentic Native American dance, but an amalgamation of Plains "fancy dancing." Yes, the music was written by a band director, but, so what. And, if I remember correctly, the Chief will also go out with the band and "preform" for school groups and I believe the student portraying the Chief has an obligation to study, as well as teach, the history of the Illini Tribe through speaking engagements (not in dress, but as the student). Everything done by Chief Illiniwek is done out of respect. Now, I understand the ends don't justify the means, or vice versa. But one can't put a blanket statement on the Chief saying that it is racist like all the other schools who have changed their names. Nor can one say that "X-School does it, so why can't we?" It should be on a case-to-case basis and I believe that Illinois has got to be the most difficult case, maybe North Dakota as well. We shouldn't have to bow down to the vocal minority, just because they are vocal, nor should we accept the majority, just because there are more of them. But just as you say, Rock, that you heard the other side and could understand where they came from...did those people go and talk to Chief Illiniwek alumni? Did they talk to relatives of Frank Fool's Crow? Did they do any research as to why Chief Illiniwek does what he does? Or did they just say, "No sir, I don't like it." To Answer your post. You obviously have some tie to it as well. But frankly the "dance" was a boy scout interpreted dance made up in 1926, and so was the initial outfit. Its ok that they do it out of respect, but the tribes, and the native american population feels that it is disrespect. Is the chiefs dance supposed to symbolize the Indian Nation? Or the schools athletic teams? The dance is thought of as a misrepresetntation of a sacred ritual and ideals of the native americans, and it is being presented as a crowd pleaser during a sporting event. It can be respectful to you all day long. But the fact that so many people inside and outside of the university find it offensive, makes a bold statement. You do not see too many of the native american population arguing that it is a respectul portrayal of their ritual. All of the arguments presented here defend it as a symbol of their athletic teams. The PRAC suggests that no matter how little the performer speaks, or acts respectful, it stil undermines the cultural history of the dancing. "UIUC's official mascot and symbol, "Chief Illiniwek" is a racist representation of Native people created by non-Natives for the halftime entertainment and profit of non-Native people. It undermines Native peoples' right to self-determination by appropriating sacred aspects of Native political and religious culture. The "Chief's" performance is just as offensive to Native Americans as the Little Black Sambo and Amos & Andy stereotypes are to African American people. By mocking Native culture, the UI sets a dangerous precedent for racist representation of all other social and ethnic groups targeted for oppression."

QUOTE(J-MAN @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 03:12 PM) There a lot more objectionable things out there than Chief Illiniwek! Why don't you people who don't go there and probably never saw how much the "symbol" not mascot is honored. I've been to games, I've seen the chief, many of my best friends attended U of I. It doesnt offend my culture. Im German, it has nothing to do with me. But it offends the culture of someone else, and they wouldnt make a big deal out of it if it didnt. You have to respect the people whose culture it offends. You can see where it hurts their image, considering its a mockey of a religious ritual used to pump up a crowd during sports. You are just b****ing to keep your sports the way it is. A cultures heritage is more important that a halftime show IMO.

QUOTE(knightni @ Jan 31, 2006 -> 07:04 PM) Thome...Thumb, get it?

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 02:50 PM) Atleast Timo has a good arm, and doesnt look like a fat man in a ballet room out there. Timo atleast knows WTF is going on. Timo in the OF:Gload at 1B::Gload in the OF:Timo at 1B Honestly, they both suck, at life.

QUOTE(J-MAN @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 02:33 PM) I find it offensive that great team names and logos have been changed to placate a small minority! You are right, lets just focus on whatever makes the majority happy, and not give a s*** what any minority group thinks, because well, they are the minority!!! Lets keep whatever makes our sports fans happy, and totally ignore a different culture's values and beliefs!!! Yeah!!!!!

QUOTE(supernuke @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 12:16 PM) I said this last year and people thought I was nuts but I'm saying the same thing this year, Hermanson will be the closer by June. I will take that bet. Sig perhaps?

QUOTE(aboz56 @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 01:57 PM) I don't think Gload will be on the Sox next year, but that's just me. me as well. And my dog is better in the OF than Gload.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 01:47 PM) Thing is, there really is no movement at FSU to get rid of the Seminoles mascot. It isn't generic; the Seminole tribe is real, a part of Florida history, and has given its full blessing to the school. I think the problem at u of i is that it seems as if their has been some movement towards getting rid of the mascot. That would make the NCAA's decision much easier if there is already controversy. That's not the case at FSU as of now. Case in point: Miami University Redskin's had the blessing of the Miami tribes in Ohio (there were no miami tribes in FLA BTW), yet still had to change the name. Why, because the name was degrading in nature, even though they were supported. The difference is seen in FSU's seminoles and schools such as the North Dakota Sioux. They are tribal names and when supported by the tribe, there is really nothing the NCAA can do about the name. If someone raises a problem with the mascot on the field, thats when they can do something. In FSU's case the student who rides renegade as the Chief has to study the tribes heritage with advisers and the outfit was designed by the Fla Seminole tribe. I still believe that the Chief will be gone someday, as it has taken roughly 7 years to get rid of Chief Illiniwek. I actually had the pleasure of attending several lectures given about this subject while I was in college, and I was definately on the other side of the argument until I got a chance to see their side. I was able to have long conversations with several individuals who made me at least consider their side of the argument. At the time I was angry about my school changing from the Skins to the Red Hawks, and I had severe emotional attachment to the Redskins. Their points about Chief Illiniwek among others really opened my eyes to other cultures and their heritage.

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 01:35 PM) I only need one example to show an inconsistency. Christ he throws a flaming spear into the 50 yard line, yet that's ok. If you want me to name another school, with a different style, similar category...Notre Dame. My opinions are different than theirs because i think the Chief represents such things as loyalty, spirt, courage, etc and embodies the whole university. Honestly, i think if there were a $$ deal in place with them like FSU has, they wouldn't be saying such things, IMO. The Chief doesn't "mock" anything. The dance is taken very seriously and the Chief has a lot of tradition behind it. Just because it's not 100% authentic doesn't make it a mockery, in my eyes. Your tradition for the cheif is about sports. That should say enough. The "dance" and outfit are degrading to real native americans. Their support and constant fight on this issue should be enough proof for you. The dance is taken seriously by college kids during a sporting event, thats it. In your daily life you dont look up and wonder, what values has the chief taught me? In their eyes he is mocking a religious and culturally significant event. Until you lose your emotional attachment to it, you will not be able to see the other side of the argument. You really should check out "In whose Honor" as a way of further educating yourself on other cultures views. Stanford, Miami University,Dartmouth, Marquette, Syracuse, Stanford, Oklahoma, St. John's all changed their mascots, as a result of immpending racist protests. Some schools even had the support of tribes dating back as far as 1809. Yet they all realized that we cannot portray other cultures in a degrading manner even if it has a negative effect on our sporting events. s***, even here at Naperville Central, they decided to change. Now all they are asking is get rid of the chief at the events, not even the mascot as whole, and you are saying "why." I say why not. FSU can deal with their own problems moving forward, but the trend suggest that their mascot will be gone in due time as well, no matter how much money is throw at the issue.

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 01:29 PM) That's pretty much a load of crap in my eyes, but i realize people have that opinion. I'm not going to get into it. However, if they are going to do this to the majority of schools, do it to all of them. That FSU seminole is offensive. Certainly more offensive in his actions than the Chief's dance. But he will probably stay due ot $$$? That's very inconsistent. So, FSU is the only school you can come up with that hasnt changed their mascot yet? I would like to know how its a load of crap in your eyes? You say I cant understnad the chief because I dont go there, maybe you dont understand their views of the racism because you arent in their minority having your culture distorted?

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 01:21 PM) But it's not just the technical naming of Illiniwek and Illini. If it were, they'd both be gone. It's about the actual symbol, dance, et al. Egg-zactly. And the cheifs fake dance and portrayal is what makes him controversial. "The "Chief" is not authentic. His dance and costume are derived from a 1926 Boy Scout project and the music was written by the UI band director using Hollywood beats. Even if the "Chief's" performance were authentic, it would still be inappropriate for a non-Native to perform it at a college sporting event. The "Chief" makes the UI a hostile environment for many Native people, and therefore impedes true education about Native culture on the UI campus. Native activists and people of conscience have repeatedly suggested that education about Native culture necessitates, first and foremost, the elimination of the "Chief," as well as the establishment of a Native Studies Program, and Cultural House (neither of which currently exist), more Native scholars, and more scholarships for Native students." " UIUC's official mascot and symbol, "Chief Illiniwek" is a racist representation of Native people created by non-Natives for the halftime entertainment and profit of non-Native people. It undermines Native peoples' right to self-determination by appropriating sacred aspects of Native political and religious culture. The "Chief's" performance is just as offensive to Native Americans as the Little Black Sambo and Amos & Andy stereotypes are to African American people. By mocking Native culture, the UI sets a dangerous precedent for racist representation of all other social and ethnic groups targeted for oppression." These views were expressed by: the American Indian Council of Illinois, the American Indian Education Association, the American Indian Movement, the Cherokee Nation, the Peoria Tribe, the National Congress of American Indians, and the National Indian Education Association. Which is why he should be gone.

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 01:16 PM) Illini, smartass. Illinois, Illini. Get it? Brilliant! And I believe the debate is over the chief illiniwek. Brief yourself of the actual premise of the argument.

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 01:10 PM) Ding ding ding we have a winner Ok, name all of these schools that are exceptions to this rule, and I will beat that list with a number of schools who have already been forced to change their mascot.

QUOTE(IlliniKrush @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 01:09 PM) False. Nor is this the issue at hand. If it were, we'd have to change our name to the Illinois Orange or some s***. Oh, I didnt know that it was called Univeristy of Illinois Illiniwek. Oh and PS, im sure there are ALOT of people who DO go to your school who think it is racist. Here is the short list: UIUC Chancellor's Committee on Diversity, UIUC Student Government, ISU Student Government, NAACP-CU Chapter, Nat'l Organization for Women-CU Chapter, UIUC's College of Medicine, School of Life Sciences, Counseling Center Staff, and Departments of Anthropology, English, History, Psychology, Sociology

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jan 31, 2006 -> 10:42 PM) Both Crede and Uribe got the job done offensively in the playoffs. Of course, you want to see them do it on a more consistent basis. Uribe hitting in the 2 hole will be better for him. His numbers hitting second are the same if not better than iguchi's.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 11:27 AM) This has nothing to do with Illinois, it has to do with the fact that the NCAA gets rid of all the Indian Mascots, yet lets certain schools win appeals. Either keep them all or dump them all is all I'm saying. Well, it seems like they are dumping them all. Illinois was one of the schools who was winning appeals, and appeared to be immune. Schools like my alma-mater, Miami, lost in this process over 6 years ago even with the support of the tribe.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Feb 1, 2006 -> 11:13 AM) As soon as the FSU mascot is gone, get rid of Chief Illiwek and I won't say a word. There simply shouldn't be exceptions to the rule....but the rule itself I have no problem with. I just listed many schools who have already been forced to get rid of theirs. So should Illinois. Its not like they are asking you to change your mascot and name all together like some of those schools. You say you are in favor of gettting rid of the chief, yet you sound like a whiny fan saying, "well, how come HE gets to have it."