ptatc

QUOTE (chw42 @ May 24, 2012 -> 01:20 PM) You don't need a special pitch to be a closer. Would it be nice to have one? Sure, but guys like Rivera are one in a million. Reed has more than enough stuff to be a successful closer. You don't have to have one but most of the really effective one do. From recent examples. Cutter: Rivera, Slider: Roberto Hernandez, Marmol, Changeup: Hoffman and Foulke, Curveball: Jenks. Again, I'm not sure it was right decision. I thought Reed looked better, but I can see why they might want to try it.

QUOTE (chw42 @ May 24, 2012 -> 12:42 PM) Reed = best relief prospect in baseball. Me before spring training: who the hell is Hector Santiago? Besides, I think most of us can agree that Santiago is more fit to be a starter with his arsenal. Not a closer. In a season where you thought you wouldn't contend, why not give Reed the job from the start? It puzzled me that it took so long for Reed to get a chance. I would disagree with that. I'm not saying he can't be. I think many people on this board wanted and still want Santiago to be a starter. However, the last time I checked this is not a message board for scouts and/or management in the majors. I agree that Reed looks to be a good closer candidate however, his doesn't have that "special" pitch which separate him from others. Santiago has a different pitch that could make him special. However, he decided to not throw strikes and that will obviously hurt him. I think it was a good gamble that hasn't worked out.

QUOTE (flavum @ May 24, 2012 -> 12:31 PM) So you're telling me a clearly easy management decision back in spring training may cost the Sox a playoff spot? Cool. I really don't see that this was an easy management decision. Most really good closers have one outstanding off speed or "trick" pitch. Rivera with the cutter, Hoffman with the changeup etc. Reed does have an outstanding fastball and good offspeed stuff but Santiago has that screwball that really could make a difference. And it's not like Reed had or even has a track record of success in the majors. In a year where no one expected them to be in playoff contention, I can see where Santiago's skill set was very tempting. I can't say I agreed with it but I can see the logic behind it.

QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ May 23, 2012 -> 09:02 PM) Pushing off is difficult with prosthetics. Monty Stratton did it, although not very effectively.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ May 22, 2012 -> 02:05 PM) State Police were in the middle of everything. They also had some pretty big dudes. My neighbor is a State cop and he is assigned to Spain. He is a big Sox fan and ticked when he heard the only chicago cops were getting the benefit. Although the OT is nice for him.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 22, 2012 -> 01:24 PM) CPD has something like 15,000 sworn officers, that's 30,000 free tickets they plan to give out. I really don't think anyone is going to complain if they aren't CHC or NYY games. I find it odd that they didn't include the thousands of suburban officers that are doing it as well.

QUOTE (iamshack @ May 19, 2012 -> 11:33 AM) Yeah, that is an incredible display of how much luck can seemingly affect how good a hitter is hitting the ball, when in reality, there may not be that much difference at all. You just have to hope he doesn't buy into the numbers and lose confidence in himself. Or is it that he is trying to be more patient (increased walk rate and decrease strikeout rate) and is being too passive and not making good contact thus the lower BABIP.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ May 11, 2012 -> 03:39 PM) Ok I've never heard of teams doing this but is it possible that they are? 2012- Bullpen sandwiched between 5 starts at the beginning and end of the season- total 10 starts 2013- Bullpen sandwiched between 8-10 starts at the beginning and end of the season- total 20 starts 2014- All starts, 32 or whatever. This would adequately stretch his inning total over the next few years, but is it a dangerous way to treat an arm? I kinda like it if it works and isn't too dangerous lol. It would be dangerous to the arm if there was damage to the ligament. Since it so far appears to be muscular, there is sound logic in backing him off the number of pitches to build strength then return to starting. Let's use running as an example. A person is running 6 mile per day to get ready to run a 10k race. They develop tendonitis in the patella tendon of the knee but there is no tears or structural damage. The correct way to treat this is to back off the mileage and run 3 or so miles as long it is painfree until the tenderness subsides. Then you slowly increase the mileage again. Muscles are muscles you treat them the same. It's when poor mechanics and structural problem arise that you need to change the paln. The sox are doing something unorthodox but from a physical stand point I can see the logic.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 10, 2012 -> 08:13 PM) Doubt the White Sox will be drafting another razor thin/questionable mechanics but great stuff JC pitcher who could either end up a starter or reliever, lol. He wasn't a JC pitcher.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 9, 2012 -> 05:20 PM) If this is the case, hypothetically, then could the fact that he was in the bullpen last year and threw fewer innings be directly related to why it's hurting now? i.e. if he'd thrown 150 innings last year at Charlotte, after 150 the previous 2 years at AAA, could that have helped his arm muscles be less fatigued now? Yes, as we discussed when they did it. His muscular strength and endurance is not where it needs to be to start and throw this many pitches at a time. There is no way the sox could know if he would run into the problem. Some pitchers can build it up faster without problems. however, I think it's safe to say that if they would have had him starting last year, the same thing would have happened and he could have done this process last year. There is no guarantee he would have pushed himself this hard in the minors but he probably would have.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 9, 2012 -> 03:53 PM) Why didn't they just do this a week ago and avoid all the needless drama? They simply could have skipped one of his starts (arguing it was part of their plan all along to skip a start here or there, especially around offdays and in order to keep his final innings pitched total for the season down to 120-140ish) and it would have been a "small" story and there would have been SOME speculation, but not nearly to this extent. Skipping the start will decrease the soreness and inflammation but will not increase the muscular strength and endurance. Putting him in the pen allows them to gradually build up the strength of the effected muscles.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 9, 2012 -> 03:20 PM) Back to PTAC talk again, haha. All we ever hear as "lay people" is that the slider puts a tremendous amount of torque on the elbow, and the example of Liriano is always raised here. One would THINK throwing change-ups would be less stressful than sliders on the elbow, yes? Does throwing 10-15 fastballs at 96-99 MPH put the same amount of stress as 40-50 at 92-94? If you look at Liriano, the thing that's very clear is that even after the TJ surgery, which has almost become a "stuff strengthener/improver" a year or year and a half after a pitcher returns from this particular surgery...Liriano is definitely a counter-example there. He's never come close to having the same slider as in 2006. With a pitcher with Chris Sales' frame, is it the mechanics that are causing more stress? His arm angle? His body density or lack of muscle? Does being thin like a Randy Johnson cause more wear and tear than someone built like Mark Prior or Kerry Wood? How realistic is it that Sales' mechanics could be changed/improved/adapted so that post TJ surgery he could pitch for a long period of time without any additional problems while simultaneously keeping his same stuff, deception and movement or pitch effects (whatever you want to call it) when he throws the ball? The slider does not inherently put more stress on the elbow. More stress is put on the elbow when the pitcher "drops down" more to get more slide on it. Surgery will not help if the mechanics don't change. Liriano needed to change the way he threw the slider which is why it is not as effective. sale really "flips" his arm when he goes from the windup to the acceleration phase. He also throws from a lower arm angle. These a primary factors in adding more stress to the elbow. I'm sure the hope is that once his strength and endurance improves the elbow soreness goes away and his wrist flexors/elbow pronators are strong enough to not get sore and he can return to starting.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 9, 2012 -> 03:10 PM) Randy Johnson had a very thin frame too, did he ever have a major surgery? I don't recall that happening early in his career, if at all. OTOH, CJ Wilson blew out his elbow after three seasons in the minors with a moderate minor league starting. But he was able later in life to jump from reliever's innings up to 200+ innings, seemingly without any trouble. He also went through bone spurs as a reliever, missed about 6 weeks and then returned the following season with no adverse repercussions. In the end, this is a messageboard. Isn't the point that everyone has a right to an opinion? Nobody said they're "smarter" than the White Sox or have more information...but to say the way they're handling this is beyond our questioning is not realistic, either. Otherwise, not a single thread would exist here. It should be just a website that reposts information from Rongey, Scott Merkin, chisox.com, Brooks Boyer on marketing/promotions, etc. To say we don't have enough information to have an informed opinion, then I'm sure you could go back and take every major trade or acquisition KW has made the last 3 years and could spin it in a way that makes it defensible. Does that matter if the results are bad every time, even if the decision-making can be defended as sound? If a "general trend" emerges and the storyline becomes "what the heck are the White Sox doing, they SEEM like they don't have a clue" it really doesn't matter in the end, does it? Perception is more important than reality. We can observe a general feeling of apathy or sentiment that many fans simply aren't going to go out to the ballpark again and spend their hard-earned dollars until the organization produces some results on the field of play. His mechanics were a lot smoother. You need to take each case separately and look at the soreness and pain. If Randy Johnson didn't have pain you wouldn't change a thing. however, we know sale has had problems so the sox are being proactive instead of reactive to a potential problem.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:55 PM) Judging by last night, he's going fastball/slider and not throwing the change-up. I agree with the innings thing over the course of the year...it was more the next few weeks where it seems they're possibly risking it. Any possiblity that this is a stress fracture type thing waiting to happen, as that makes more sense than elbow ligaments based on how it's being treated. It's not consistent with stress fracture (stress reaction is the new in vogue term) symptoms. It really sounds muscular and they are trying to decrease his number of pitches when the muscles will be fatigued and thus less stress on the ligaments.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:46 PM) The puzzling thing is how would pitching 3 times a week possibly throwing maybe 50 pitches during a week salvage his arm as opposed to a start with 100 pitches? Seems like a very fine line. If it is truly muscular it makes all the sense in the world. Throwing 20 pitches 3 times per week will not fatigue the muscle as much as 100 pitches at one time. Mechanically it fewer times throwing the slider with fatigued muscles.

QUOTE (Reddy @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:36 PM) DL stints are typical. Putting your BEST YOUNG STARTER in the bullpen out of the blue is atypical. This is definitely atypical with being proactive to soreness. But I like it. They are trying to protect a young promising pitcher. Most of the time they pitch him until he is in too much pain to pitch and then he goes on the DL. Part of the reason maybe that they don't really expect to compete this year and are protecting the future.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 9, 2012 -> 02:18 PM) Cortisone, pitch, pitch, tear, tommy john, fixed. IMO. you can't use cortisone for this type of problem. Cortisone is only used in a joint capsule, bursa or a similar enclosed area. this problem is all outside the joint capsule.

QUOTE (flavum @ May 9, 2012 -> 12:55 PM) And Sale will get an MRI as well. So that's good. I hope it's clean, and he can go back to starting. MRI's really don't show as much as people think. They are good for inflammation and fluid but aren't really accurate by themselves. As I tell my students MRI means More Radiographic Income. They are a piece to the puzzle but usually aren't as accurate as the physical exam.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ May 9, 2012 -> 11:35 AM) Cooper dismissed the notion that Sale’s mechanics aren’t suited for the rigors of starting. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...e-to-start.html This article. For the record I trust PTATC and the only beef I have with all this is the Sox keep I saying: "I don't know, we will see, who knows what happens" just seems like they dont have a plan. Mechanics are always a debate. I would say his are questionable just like I've always said I didn't like Strasburg or Prior's, although for different reasons. However, many people will disagree with me as there are many schools of philosophy when it comes to mechanics. Cooper really doesn't subscribe to a theory of mechanics. He mostly talks about the theory of pitching and how to get pitchers to throw strikes within their own mechanics. I don't think you will ever hear Cooper truly discuss mechanics or how to change them.

QUOTE (knightni @ May 9, 2012 -> 11:57 AM) <!--quoteo(post=2595027:date=May 9, 2012 -> 08:46 AM:name=Balta1701)-->QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 9, 2012 -> 08:46 AM) <!--quotec-->Wait, he has a knee problem? There's an ACL on your elbow. There isn't an ACL in the elbow. There is an UCL, the ulnar collateral ligament on the inside of the elbow and an RCL or radial collateral ligament on the outside of the elbow. Although the old terminology for each is MCL and LCL for medial and lateral collateral ligaments which is similar to the knee terminology. There are no cruciate ligaments in the elbow.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 9, 2012 -> 10:58 AM) No one has said its impossible to do that - obviously it happens. Dempster did it too, if I recall correctly. Its just hard to do and expect success with it, especially for a young player who, in my view, looks like a stick figure and lacks a lot of muscle. What it did was, increase the risk (a lot) of this happening, Heck, its not like I was the only one saying this would likely happen during the year, lots of others did as well. It just happened earlier than many would have guessed. The variable here are his mechanics. Dempster and Lowe had fairly good mechanics and no one doubted they could start. I think the Sox have doubts he can do this even with the "normal" conditioning and they are being ultra-conservative with the elbow tenderness.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 9, 2012 -> 07:46 AM) Wait, he has a knee problem? I'm sure he meant UCL for ulnar collateral ligament. For what it's worth, here is my take on what's happening based on all of the information out there and from people I know in MLB. Sale's elbow has been sore. It's seems mostly muscular not ligamentous (UCL). The Sox staff (Cooper, Schneider, KW) are all worried about his mechanics and workload. There is heavy skepticism that he can last a full year starting with his mechanics. So do you want a part time starter or a full time reliever? It looks like they are going to decrease his workload by having him start for awhile then be in the bullpen for awhile then go back to starting. If you are worried about structural damage such as the UCL, this would be a horrible idea as the constant work out of the bullpen would mostly cause more damage. However from a muscle development aspect it's not a bad idea. The other option is to put him in the minors and slowly build up his arm with skipping start as I believe it was Balta advocated. However I think the Sox value his arm too much at the MLB level. This whole process of a part time starter is out of the box thinking which is why it creating such an controversy. However, from a purely physical point of view, it's different, but makes sense.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 7, 2012 -> 11:08 AM) And the Twins had that amazing 2006 stretch run, the Tigers the 2007 World Series, to show for Liriano and Zumaya...there's that. What do we have, exactly? The Twins also made the playoffs two more times with Liriano as one of their STARTERS and not relievers. Are you so sure GM Ryan would have given up the 2006 season and done what exactly with Liriano? Put him into the bullpen all season long? Would the Twins have made the playoffs in 2009 and 2010 without Liriano in their rotation? Zumaya was a reliever in your situation. You cannot take a single scenario or even a few cases and say you have enough data to confidently say "this is how we should treat this injury" I'm not sure how you can extrapolate a teams performance from an individual's elbow problems. If you want to risk the health and career of one of your players, that's your choice. Between Cooper and Schneider, the Sox have a pretty good track record of keeping pitchers healthy. If they do not feel Sale can do it, I would side with them. From what I've seen, I would agree. You also don't know the situation behind the other pitcher's problems. Were they having problems maintaining their pitches between games. Was there pain and altered mechanics on the off days? Could they even long toss on their off days? Generalizing injuries is not a very effective way to treat another pitcher.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 7, 2012 -> 10:53 AM) What if it provides Francisco Liriano results or Joey Zumaya? If it did, you would be complaining, as Frank Thomas says, no doubt about it. If it was so cut and dried that everyone would return the same or stronger and would never have another elbow issue again, teams would make pitchers have the surgery the day they were signed. Especially if they do not change the mechanical flaws that lead to the problem in the first place.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 7, 2012 -> 10:32 AM) Danny Wright 1-7, 6.15 ERA Josh Stewart 1-2, 5.96 ERA Mike Porzio, 1-1, 6.43 ERA Neal Cotts, 1-1, 8.10 ERA 4-11 So, you're going to tell me that Dylan Axelrod, Stults, Simon Castro, Pedro Hernandez, Santiago and Nestor Molina are going to be a significant improvement there?? Your point is valid. However, what you don't seems to want to believe is that the Sox do not think Sale can handle the stress of starting. If Sale wasn't having problems they would leave him in the rotation. It's not a case of where he best fits. It's a case of do you want him on the team in the bullpen or in the operating room.