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QUOTE (Tannerfan @ Feb 7, 2012 -> 03:27 PM) Last night my wife and I went out to dinner with a group of friends. We talked about the Super Bowl, but then the conversation turned to everyone saying what their favorite sport was. I of course said baseball, and the woman next to me said she enjoyed it but found it a little boring. I told her that once you understand the nuances of the game it is very dramatic and exciting. I used game six of this past World Series as an example. Long story short, she is a very literary person and asked me to reccomond at least three books about baseball. I've thought of Moneyball and Roger Kahn's The Boys of Summer. I know I can count on all of you to help me come up with a third, and probably a better one and two as well. Help me out Soxtalkers. I want to convert her from basketball to baseball! Cal Ripken's book is excellent. If she wants to see how baseball is connected to american history there is a good book about Moe Berg, the catcher who used his international baseball travels to spy on other nations.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 6, 2012 -> 11:34 PM) The better question is how much do we blame our.... 1) college/high school amateur draft scouts 2) minor league development people (Bell now) 3) major league coaching staff, especially Ozzie and Walker 4) front office, KW and Hahn specifically You can say "the buck stops here" and it's ultimately KW's responsibility, with scouts merely providing advice and counsel, guidance and their combined years of collective wisdom (I think Moneyball suggesting it's 150 years is a bit much, don't remember Abner Doubleday or Alexander Cartwright doing much scouting during the Civil War)... I think it also has to do with overall philosophy. Until a few years ago the Sox were drafting the Low ceiling but supposedly safer players such as Broadway and McCullough in the first round. I think they figured out that even these players have a high fail rate so they should change their philosophy and go for the raw but possible superstar talents like they have in the last few drafts with Sale, Mitchell, Wlaker and Thompson. All had big question marks but big talent. My personal opinion is that KW is very smart and knew he didn't know drafting. He knew development which was his role in the organization before he became GM. So he relied heavily on people that were here before him such as Shaeffer and Wilder. He probably gave them to much power as the conservative style of drafting really doesn't fit with KW's "go for it" attitude with everything else. I think is why he is still around. JR is allowing the drafts from the last few years to mature (for lack of a better word) and see if KW can do it his way.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 7, 2012 -> 06:21 AM) Never said majority, he either said several or many or a few, but he did say, Jerry said no, so it was no. It certainly didn't seem like it was brought to the BOD, which, BTW, Jerry handpicked. And if it was Stern only mentioned Jerry's veto as the only thing that really mattered. If the investors want to sell their shares and get out, I don't think it would be difficult to do. This is the point you should have made earlier. This is correct. Jerry built the group to buy the team with mostly close associates who will agree with him. This way he will always have the majority of votes on his side. However, if they ever turned against him and voted against him, he could not overrule thier vote. This is unlikely as he has made them so much money in real estate deals that it wouldn't be worth it for them. Your premise of selliong the team is still flawed. If a minority of owners wanted to sell and a majoirty didn't, the team wouldn't be sold regardless of who was the Chairman. What happened was that Jerry didn't want to sell and so his group didn't sell. The people who wanted to sell could sell their shares to someone else if approved by the board. I believe a couple did and Jerry even bought someone's shares.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 6, 2012 -> 10:19 PM) SR: I was actually just talking about that with Helen [Zelman; Diamondback's baseball operations assistant] and one of our scouts. In terms of looking at and projecting amateur players, [we often] look at their athleticism, we look at their performance and physical tools, trying to assess whether or not they'll be good professional players. And one of the harder parts is assessing what kind of aptitude they have to learn as they progress up the professional baseball chain. People automatically gravitate to things like, 'What is their GPA at Georgia Tech?' or 'Where did they go to high school and were they on the honor roll?' But sometimes the difference between athletic aptitude, the ability to take something you watch happen, or something the coach asks you to do, and immediately do it, might be different than if you can solve an equation for X. I think this is one of the more interesting quotes in the article....and it really goes to the failures the White Sox have endured with Josh Fields, Borchard, Brian Anderson and all the uncertainty about Beckham's future as well. Then there's that leadership element....the "this player makes the players surrounding him XXX times better just by his presence in the line-up and clubhouse" factor that's so hard to measure accurately. For example, how much will the White Sox miss Mark Buehrle because of that "value-added" element to his game that Greg likes to point out? How much will we suffer when AJ is no longer the full-time catcher? How much did Everett and Rowand provide the team in terms of leadership in 2005? How much did losing Juan Uribe or Joe Crede have to do with our "failures" in 2009-10-11? On the negative side, how much does Rios hurt the team chemistry, above and beyond his actual performance...or even with a manager who was obviously not fully engaged and loyal? Again, I agree with all of this but it doesn't really discount what the Sox have or have not done. Joe Borchard was known as an extremely intelligent person. He was always classified as a "thinking quarterback." That's saying something especially at Stanford. Brian Anderson was a carefree guy but not a bad guy. Josh Fields was known for his leadership in the huddle for big games in college football. I know no one will miss AJ in the locker room He does work hard and knows how to call a game, so the Sox may miss that. I'm the first one to bring up the intangibles and things you can't measure by numbers in baseball. I'm just not convinned that the Sox aren't doing it. I think KW really looks at the character of a player before he signs/trades for them. Remeber when he signed AJ when it looked like no one else would. He said he spent a long time talking to people within various organizations he player for to determine if he should sign them. I don't think grooming someone in your organization necessarily helps this. It all factors in. The manager especially in this case. I think Ozzie is a very good manager and will be successful. However, it was obviously time to go. I think the players knowing he wanted out played a large factor into the poor performance last season.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 6, 2012 -> 08:57 PM) A little more conservative and risk-averse, I could see their farm system ranking in 12-18 range instead of the bottom 2 or 3 organizations. Of course, a lot of that's going to be determined by how well the team finishes in 2012 and 2013, in terms of slotting and draft position for the first round picks. If we are in the 70's (especially lower 70's) for wins the next two seasons, then it's pretty hard to imagine not improving that farm system...and bringing in Soler or Cespedes would also have a huge impact, obviously. Where KW is 90% MLB results and 10% farm system development, nurturing, I think we'll see more of a 70/30 split in favor of the results at the major league level and balancing payroll/profitability with long-term sustainability. The flaw in the KW model has always been consistency and year to year fluctuations caused by his changing the chemistry and make-up of the roster around so much...and not having a wave of "Sox bred" players being promoted year after year from within, players who have learned to play the game the right way as opposed to learning 90% of it at the major league level, when results always have to be prioritized over teaching/development. I agree with everything you said but I don't it's a flaw in the KW model as much as it's his philosophy from his point of view. Most prospects don't turn out successfully so if you can package them for someone who has had success, you have a better chance of being good. This is the way KW looks at things. Both philosophies have advantages and disadvantages. I'm not sure there is a "right way to play" the game other than busting your rear all the time. There are many philosphies on the right way.

A friend brought me a bottle of 20 year old Tawny port from Sandeman's for the Super Bowl. My 14 year old daughter decide to bring up the topic of a new boyfriend today. I'm having a couple of glasses tonight.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Feb 6, 2012 -> 08:12 PM) I've sort of wondered if Kenny is just being kept on to merely clean up his own mess. To allow Hahn have a decent position to start out with. Let Hahn eventually take over with a clean slate after Peavy/Rios/Dunn are gone, and hopefully he'll have a semblance of a farm system to play around with at that point too. If so, one would hope he's had great say in the current moves being made to "rebuild." It will be interesting to see his philosophy. KW is as as different as you can get from Schueler who held onto all of his prospects of which most don't turn out. I have a feeling Hahn will be more like KW and trade for established veterans and use the farm system more as trading currency than prospects for the Sox.

QUOTE (K-Rock @ Feb 6, 2012 -> 07:45 PM) Do you think he would be willing to wait that long? As the second best candidate out there he should have better options out there before 2015 I do think he will wait that long. He sees how loyal JR is and the resources the Sox have. He has pull out/turned down other opportunities in the past. He is biding his time because he knows KW's tenure as GM is about over.

He will be the GM by 2015.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 6, 2012 -> 03:15 PM) Do you have a copy of their bylaws? I'm just relaying what a partner went on the record with. I do not have a copy of the by-laws. But that is how the partnership arrangement works in general. He cannot overrule a decision by the board. I'm going by information provided by some friends within the organization. I don't know where you got your information from but that was my understanding of the situation.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 6, 2012 -> 01:43 PM) He can override any board request, and has on several occassions, some being correct and some not working out so well. Truth be told, although JR does listen to his partners, they, at least according to Stern, have no "rights" . His is the final decision, and its worked out well for all of them. No he can't. He is the managing partner. He runs the day to day operations but the board needs to agree with the large issues. The example of selling the team wasn't the fact that JR said no so it wasn't going to happen. It was that some not all of the members wanted to sell and JR was one of the ones who wanted to keep it and his group of voters were the majority. You can make the case that the majority of the voters may agree with him and he runs it like Daley ran ran the city council but this only happens as long as he has the majority of the voters on his side. He cannot override a vote of the board.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Feb 6, 2012 -> 11:22 AM) All those good responses to my post and then this? Some of us think the White Sox owner has a ton of money and if he ever sells the team will make a zillion dollar profit as well. So yes I wanted him to fork over some money to pay Mark. Cheers to the fans who toast the team with their 10 dollar beers. You do realize that the person you are referring to a "owner" (I'm assuming it's JR) owns less than 15% of the team. It's not like the Bulls where he owns controlling interest and can do basically whatever he wants. He is the managing partner of the Sox but needs to go to the whole board to make big decsions like"let's lose money this year."

QUOTE (hi8is @ Feb 2, 2012 -> 06:03 PM) The Cuban chips begin to fall. I wonder what the contract will end up looking like. Give me Soler! My friend didn't know the details. He was in a training room when the news went flying around the DR.

They did it a few minutes ago. MLB traderumors has it now.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 2, 2012 -> 06:18 AM) While I will applaud any effort to make the organization and scouting in particular better in any way, I'm not going to get too excited about the Sox stronger presence in the DR. It can help, but it probably will take a while, and the entire cast of characters from JR to KW to Ventura will probably be gone before it really pays off. I read last year the typical DR prospect takes 8 years to develop. This is because they can sign at 16 and they make it to the majors on average 23-24.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 31, 2012 -> 12:28 PM) Baseball is always awesome. Its all perspective. I agree. I love going to baseball games because I enjoy baseball. I enjoy it more when the Sox win but I guess I'm in the minority where I can enjoy baseball because it's baseball.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 30, 2012 -> 02:46 PM) You lost me after the first sentence! The microfracture procedure has nothing to do with an ACL surgery. It's done on cartilage damage similar to arthritis. So he has a lot more going on than just an ACL tear. The ACL is minor compared to the other damage which will probably prevent him from catching again.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 30, 2012 -> 11:43 AM) jaysonst Jayson Stark Boy, Victor Martinez is in for a long haul. Needed microfracture & meniscus surgery. Won't be ready to have his ACL repaired for 6-8 weeks. There is something weird here. You don't do a meniscus surgery prior to an ACL reconstruction. They are done concurrently because of the healing time. It is counter-productive to be immobilized prior to ACL replacement. The microfracture procedure is done to enhance the healing of the cartilage which covers the ends of the bones (hyaline cartilage not meniscal cartilage). With these procedures there must be some articular cartilage damage that is more serious than the ACL injury. It's good bet his catching days are over. So if he returns next year the 1B/DH positions will be crowded unless he makes the transition to OF ala Fisk

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 27, 2012 -> 10:25 PM) Kenny said there's no money left. The fans should say the same thing to him. MUST. RIP. KENNY. MUST. RIP. KENNY.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 28, 2012 -> 02:22 PM) Trib It will be interesting to watch how he goes through spring training. It will go a long way in telling us how the strength came back in the lat. It usually takes a full year to regain the strength after any significant shoulder surgery.

Since no one else has done it yet, I will say it..... Since Batman is not on the list it has to be ROBIN. (yes, i am a geek)

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 26, 2012 -> 08:12 PM) I just don't get how someone can have this line of reasoning. Wins alone don't tell you if someone is a good manager. Don't you think the actual amount of talent on a roster is single biggest driver of wins? Sure, the manager can impact that production by motivating his players and having them prepared to play, but there's no easy way to measure exactly how much of a difference he made. The manager's in-game decision-making is the other major way he can improve his team's chances to win and that is also difficult to measure. Regardless, wins only tell you how all the individual pieces performed in aggregate, they do not tell you anything about manager's specific contributions. Unfortunately, evaluating a manager has to be subjective. Look at how his roster performed versus how much talent it posesses. Consider how well his team did in close games, where the manager can actually make a difference. The worst team in baseball record-wise could very well have the best manager, if he got more out of his talent and made better decisions than all other managers would have in his role. You use wins to defend Ozzie as a great manager, while I would say his teams did not live up to expections since 2005. He may have the best record in Sox history, but IMO it should have been better given the talent he had. On top of that, he became a terrible in-game manager in recent years, making decisions so confounding it almost seems like he made them simply to put his stamp on the games. Guillen did a good job in 2005, but has progressively gotten worse to the point where he is a bad manager. If people don't agree, they must have missed the past couple seasons, because he cost a lot of games during that time with his idiotic decisions. Your point is valid. I just look at it differently and disagree. You could look at the micromanagement point of view and examine all the little things like every in game decision, the talent of each player etc. You can say the teams underachieved since 2005. I think in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2008 they over achieved. I prefer to look at the only thing that matters, winning. I never said he was a great manager I said very good and one of the best ever for the Sox. He was an awful in game manager, I think Cooper saved his rear many times with the pitching staff. I think however, that he was really good at getting the most out of his players, until the last 2 years. This is why he was a very good manager but he had lost the team and it was time to go. This seems to happen with fiery coaches/managers. They have a limited shelf life. Ozzie reminds me of Lovie Smith in a way. Both are awful in game mangers but get the most out of the players. This is where they make up for the games they lose with poor in game decisions. I think the hardest part of coaching is getting the pampered millionaires to play at the highest level, especially in baseball where there are so many games and the players can no longer use the amphetamines toward the end of the season. The difference is Smith is low key with it and I think he has a longer shelf life with a given group of players.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 26, 2012 -> 08:46 PM) What? When has this board said anything bad about Brent Lillibridge??? When he was first acquired there were people going crazy about how useless of a prospect he was. Up until last year, he was shredded constantly.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 26, 2012 -> 04:12 PM) KW, easily. Could Dunn or Rios get anymore hate this year than they did last year? Pretty much the same with Peavy. He's done nothing since he's been here. What's another year? Beckham? Expectations are so low for him right now that it's almost expected that he'll be bad. He'll just go down as another bust of a White Sox first round pick. Morel and De Aza? Nope. They're both making peanuts. So if they suck, they'll just be guys that you're not really paying much to suck. Nobody else even worth mentioning,. This is KW's baby. He's put this roster together. Ozzie and Walker are gone. They are of no consequence anymore. If they bomb again, he'll get it much worse than he ever has before. Since everyone knows this is a retooling/rebuilding year will the posters still go after him.... without a doubt. My vote is for all of the above. This board has enough posters to hate and destroy them all.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jan 26, 2012 -> 05:04 PM) Buehrle, Santos and Quentin were replaced by 3 top tier prospects. Sox fans have a lot to be angry about but the replacements for those 3 certainly isn't one of them. Wait a minute our awful farm system cannot possbily produce two MLB products to help this year. The sysem is the worst in baseball.