chitownsportsfan

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 21, 2015 -> 06:56 PM) But who has the team to bother with that? Carrying a player that requires a platoon that can play 1 OF position (poorly)? The problem is f***ing La Roche. If La Roche wasn't around you could keep Avi as a DH/1B/RF and get him two to three starts every week.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 21, 2015 -> 06:56 PM) I think 4 years and an option probably get it done for Gordon. Yea we'll see how much teams are really valuing defense. For all the talk about the Cubs getting Heyward at a discount it could also just be teams aren't quite 100% committed to "full value" for guys that rely on defensive metrics for their productivity. Maybe a team option with a buyout.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 21, 2015 -> 06:46 PM) I'm guessing 15 million for four years would get it done for Gordon if there really isn't much of a market. If this guy can get five years, his agent is the best in the history of the world. He's too old for a five year deal. I bet the Royals don't go higher than 15. I bet Sox at 16 mill a year for four years with team option would get it done. No way 4 years gets it done. If anything it will be 5 years with a buyout.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 21, 2015 -> 06:35 PM) You put him in a proper platoon situation and put him in a place where he can be a valid contributor. Or you could you know, allow him to have another 300 PA before August and see what happens. I'm not all that confident Avi is anything other than replacement level but he's young enough where IMO you need to give him another shot before you sell at rock bottom. There's not some surefire 4 WAR upgrade easily available to replace him. There's nothing in house and bringing in more than one veteran OF via FA isn't in the cards, unless JR wants to go all Michael Ilitch on us (that would be great but yea, zero chance of that) the Sox' best bet is to role with Avi until they have to make a decision in late July about not only his future but the Sox' odds of making the playoffs in '16. Basically they should just hold him and see what happens. It's not worth it to try and bring in a Gillaspie type that at best is a 2 WAR starter and anything better than that is going to cost big time in prospects or cash.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 02:48 AM) It was a rhetorical question for me. I know how they come up with the numbers. You have a funny way of asking rhetorical questions if so... The question you asked is a good one -- what exactly is a "routine play" -- and is answered different ways depending on what metric you use. I'm inclined to believe that nobody really knows what a routine play is. Not until the tracker data is mature will we know that.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 12:23 AM) It's about how often those opportunities come up. A hitter gets 3-5 at-bats per game. Defensively, how many non-routine plays can you make in a game and how many does it take to actually "save" a run? eh it's sorta simple -- it's just based on outs and how often a play gets turned into one and then an out is worth so and so runs and thus wins. That said, how you measure an out defensively is pretty contentious. I'm inclined to agree with the OP that it can be over valued but Heyward's deal isn't a good example. H is also pretty good offensively (121 wRC+ with the bat and can motor on the bases) and if anyone is proven elite defensively it's him.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Dec 17, 2015 -> 12:35 AM) I find it humorous that Frazier's closest offensive comp at age 29 is Joe Crede, because I've often thought that Crede's steady .250ish average, 20-30 HRs, and 70-80 RBIs with extremely solid defense would be a perennial all-star in today's game. everything is relative. Crede probably would hit 220 in today's MLB. Lotta gas out there and specialized relievers. that said, if Frazier is f***ing Joe Crede in his prime that would be great for '16.

QUOTE (TomPickle @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 11:35 PM) There has been one team since 2000 to produce a 40+ WAR for position players and that was the 2001 Mariners that won 116 games. White Sox had an absurdly low 3.1 cumulative WAR for their position players last year. If Lawrie and Frazier perform the exact same as they did last year that would be a 7.5 WAR increase over what the White Sox got out of 2B and 3B last season. Don't think this trade alone makes the Sox contenders, but don't think they are 4-5 players away either like some have said in this thread. f***ing regression better hit some of these guys this year in a relative positive manner. seems the Sox have been snake bit lately. Even most of their (quote, unquote) "saber moves" have proven s***ty position player wise. I mean, Dunn by saber analysis was good. So was Melky. Hasn't worked so far.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 06:44 PM) I've always liked Napoli. it's a nice football club.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 06:33 PM) This is just comical: JONATHAN GRAFF ‏@JLGPROD 2h2 hours ago Did the #Whitesox give up too much young talent for Todd Frazier? #WhiteSoxTalk -best answers at 6pm on @CSNChicago I literally haven't heard one negative comment in the Chicago media about Theo's moves so far. Amazing how Trayce Thompson went from a mid-level prospect to the next sure thing. It's also funny that neither Micah or Thompson is that young by baseball standards.

With strong Cuban leadership from Abreu perhaps Puig would be a decent fit. I dunno though.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 06:04 PM) What is a "challenge" trade? don't hear it much anymore but it's a straight up 1 for 1 trade usually involving two touted prospects where the trade could swing wildly in either direction depending on who pans out.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 06:01 PM) I do agree it would be nice to get Baez, but unless we are giving them Q or Rodon, it isn't happening (and I'm not implying straight up...we'd need something else). We'd have to dangle or prospects in a 3 team deal (and you aren't getting Baez without Fullmer). Fulmer for Baez straight up would be an awesome "challenge" trade.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 05:52 PM) Why would Cubs want to move Baez for guys who don't help their short-term world series aspirations? good point but Baez doesn't seem to have a place on the current Cubs. They might want to try and get value for him before it atrophies even further.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 05:51 PM) Am I the only one that would like to see Javy Baez on the South Side? I'm intrigued by his potential. I bet Adams/Danish/Beck and someone else would get him. I'd like him but he'd have to be willing and able to entertain the idea of a position switch to LF/RF. Not sure I'd give up Adams for him but you have to give to get.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 03:51 PM) You know that I am as unhappy with La Roche, as anyone here. However, if they add a decent bat to the outfield, La Roche's impact would be greatly minimized. He could bat in the bottom 3RD of the order, and at least he'd add a LH bat. If he hits in that spot, and only faces RH pitching, he could be serviceable with rather pedestrian numbers. I'd take .240 to .250 average and .330 to .340 OBP, with 14 to 15 homers. That's not an unrealistic expectation. I don't trust RV to use La Roche that way, even if the roster shakes out as you said. Really wish the Sox had moved on from RV. Whatever, it's time for RV to s*** or get off the pot. He'll sink or swim this year.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 03:42 PM) He aged 7 years. I think if you looked at the vast majority of men, athlete or not, they are not in as good of shape at 31 compared to when they were 24. Some rumors that Dunn enjoy his brewskies. Hard to get slim when you're ingesting that many liquid calories and not on the Michael Phelps training plan.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 03:25 PM) F this nonsense. I don't want to deal with another flounder. Ventura is going to kick ass and take names and get an extension after he wins the series!! Just make LaRoche the player manager with the condition he only plays 1B and only on days a RHP is on the mound. Get two birds stoned with one joint.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 03:16 PM) So an outfield bat would put us closer to the Tribe, but the big area we get crushed is the rotation. Losing Shark puts more pressure on Rodon in what will be his first full year as well as additional pressure on Erik Johnson to come around. We do have Fulmer in the wings, but I still think it is unrealistic to project a ton around him. We have to hope we see the EJ of most of his career and that he can take a step forward and build off of his 2015 campaign. He (and say Rodon), along with health, might be the keys to the Sox season. Interesting how high a team like the Red Sox ranks, given where they performed and the fact that they made two big moves. Shows you how far below plan the 2015 team played as well (must be getting a lot of positive regression). Yea I agree. Fangraphs has the Sox at 14.6 project WAR from SP. That figure could end up quite a bit higher given the upside of Johnson and Rodon. Sox need Rodon and Johnson to come out with their hair on fire.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 02:40 PM) Because we'd be caught in the middle. The team's not good enough to compete with Avi in the outfield. I also strongly disagree with the "next to nothing" characterization. I think what we gave up was pretty fair, but Montas is a good prospect, even if he's just a reliever. We've seen what good relievers can get in a trade. That described 2/3 of the teams in MLB. The 2nd WC makes a big difference. For once perhaps some guys exceed expectations. I know it's a stretch but what if Avi isn't really a 0 WAR player? Stranger things have happened. Is it likely? No, but you don't just wait around for the perfect storm to try and build a monster club. The Cubs did it but it's not f***ing easy and most teams are in the same boat the Sox are.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 02:37 PM) Was already planning on that. At least this year when they're below .500 I won't be nearly as annoyed, I just won't care. ha, I'm pretty cynical but even I will wait until they are 40-55 in July to stop caring.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 02:36 PM) On the bright side, this will save you a lot of time watching baseball next year. I don't really get the logic. The team is better on paper today than it was yesterday. Is the roster perfect? Hell no but one thing at a time. At least now they have some legit proven everyday infielders and won't be trotting out marginal guys like Sanchez, Micah and an aging overpriced Ramirez. The team has a s*** load of holes a couple are now filled. More work needs to be done and some positive regression will go a long way.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 02:19 PM) Montas has a big arm, can hit 100 and his slider is nasty at times. But his command is rough on all his pitches, his mechanics are inconsistent, and he is far too gun-happy which makes his pitches flatten. He's a reliever, and it isn't guaranteed even that will work. Thompson is a solid 4th OF right now, with a ceiling of a starting CF regular, but that's a roll of the dice. Micah can hit in the majors and has game-changing speed, but he can't defend his position at second and can't handle other positions. Plus he has repeated health issues. The Sox got an All Star-level 3B for at least two years, for that? Win. Big win. And this coming from a guy who follows (and writes about) the minor league system closely. I agree with your assessment on all three. Only real wild card is Thompson. Micah and Montas have huge question marks and even if they pan out will be flawed players that limit their upside as regulars. Sox are trading from depth and I like it.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 02:13 PM) I wonder if we hear Hawk say "the strong arm of Lawrie" on every double play lol. I can see Jose trying to scoop a low scud missile already.

QUOTE (TheTruth05 @ Dec 16, 2015 -> 12:26 PM) I think he's optioned or they're trying hard to get rid of him. They should not be trying to "dump" Avi. He has no value anyways. Like Viciedo, this is his make or break year. If they are somehow 58-43 around the trade deadline and Avi is replacement level yea, then you dump him. Not now.