Balta1701

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 06:11 PM) Then you hold the player(s)! The two guys they traded were basically earning their paychecks. If your goal is to compete in the near-term, you hold your performing and over performing assets and trade or dump the underperforming assets. If the goal was to compete in the near term, they should have been trading the underperforming assets, subsidized with cash, in an attempt to get back prospects who could even out the losses you were taking on the underperforming assets. Admittedly, that is much more difficult. These are all reasons why I would have traded Sale. You either trade him and hold your performing assets in the hope that you can bring back even more over performing assets than he was, and hope to compete next year, or you blow the whole thing to s***, including Sale, and hope to come back with a vengeance in '16/'17 forward... The problem with keeping either of these guys is that they were blocking guys who could have a future when they did not. Rios was keeping Garcia in AAA, Peavy was keeping several pitchers from getting a shot. If your goal is to rebuild as fast as possible, your goal is to maximize the value of every asset you have. Keeping Jake Peavy in the rotation and several pitchers in the minors doesn't do that. Keeping Garcia getting minor league at bats similarly does not do that.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 06:04 PM) They haven't done it this year, but they've done it in the past. Maybe teams decided to stop being willing to take money for prospects starting this year, but reports of the Pirates being frustrated with the Sox not being willing to part with any cash seem to suggest otherwise. Again, Beltran trade, Wandy trade, Dempster trade -- there are precedents for this every year except (admittedly) this year. How much money did the Cubs pick up in the Dempster deal? I seriously can't find it reported that money moved in that deal at all. I also can't find any evidence that there was any money exchanged in the Beltran deal. The Giants appear to have just picked up the remaining sum on his deal, which looks to have been about $5 million.

QUOTE (sammy esposito @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 06:01 PM) He is finally playing commensurate with his pay it is time to trade him. Um, great. He passed through waivers unclaimed.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:55 PM) This -- we went into the deadline with the best arm and best bat available, in a situation where there were more buyers and fewer sellers than ever before, and we very clearly prioritized salary relief over all else, despite the fact that both Rios and Peavy were controllable and thus trade-able over the winter and next year, and despite the fact that we already had almost no long-term financial commitments and are a large market team capable of sustaining payrolls of $90-100m. At this point it's just very unclear where that money is going to go, as there are extremely strict caps on spending it on amateur talent and the fact that we're trading our best players means it makes little sense to spend big in free agency. Financial flexibility is a great thing, but our organization needs nothing more than it needs young talent, and that financial flexibility can'y buy us much young talent under this CBA. But there is legitimately no obvious way that they were going to translate "Spending more money" into additional talent beyond the returns they got. There's a reason why literally zero teams did what you're insisting the Sox should have done - pick up more money for one of these guys to get a top flight prospect added...because no teams are doing that.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:54 PM) Have to admit i need a little review session...what's the prognosis for hopes of Brandon Jacobs in CF or is he basically corner for sure He'd need to get a lot better at reading balls off the bat. That said, he might well be athletic enough to handle the spot if he was ever given a tryout there.

QUOTE (mataipaepae @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:45 PM) maybe brandon jacobs? he has been hitting very well since coming over from boston. and he is very athletic and a good defender too. Jacobs just got called up to AA right before we traded for him, he's been there for what, less than 2 months? Calling him up would be a mad rush. He might be a guy we could think about being close to a callup next year in September or late in the year if someone gets hurt. He's athletic but I wouldn't call him close to a good defender yet. I did not like the routes he took to the ball at all, he needs to get a lot better reading it off the bat. If he's ready next year, great, he can be the guy who pushes us to trade De Aza or give up on Viciedo. He's not nearly that close yet.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:37 PM) They apparently didn't get the memo about the international signing cap this year, blowing away the cap even after making trades to acquire as much cap space as possible. The penalty for doing so is substantial taxes on the the signings. They got a ton of talent, though -- most of the consensus top players IIRC. And in 6-7 years we can see what they actually get out of those guys. We might well get more out of Zapata (viva!) than they get out of any of them.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:28 PM) Part of it is surely psychological. None of our top prospects (other than Hawkins) are position players...unless you want to include Trayce, too. And nobody would be surprised if NONE of our current outfield prospects made it as big league regulars...so there's that lingering disappointment/suspicion of our own system and minor league development (in general), juxtaposed with the seeming riches in young position players that the Cubs have... And yeah, the pitching's definitely harder to find/obtain. Maybe not sexy enough, though. At least Semien and Micah Johnson and Phegley for awhile gave us SOMETHING to pin our hopes on...as well as Mr. Webb's development. Now both Garcias, and we're yet to see what will come of the Jesse Crain deal. You can write the exact same thing about the Cubs though, right? They don't have a single pitcher in their top 5-6 prospects and its entirely possible they have zero pitchers coming up through their system in the next couple years. Nobody would be surprised if none of their minor league pitchers stuck as major leaguers any time soon.

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:27 PM) Thanks! Garcia was sent down in June after Ian Kinsler came off the DL. His minor league numbers this year are entirely since he was sent down, so he's hitting .264 with a .723 OPS since being sent down.

QUOTE (Wedge @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:25 PM) Unless I'm mistaken, Bryant, Baez, Almora, and Soler were draft picks? In the "trade a starting pitcher for prospects sweepstakes of 2013" I like Garcia over Olt. I'll grant you Alcantara as an international signing. Not seeing where the Cubs spending willy nilly in trades is making a difference. Soler was another international cuban signing done right before the international caps started

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:23 PM) 2. The player may not be an active Major Leaguer player during the interval between the trade and the date the player is named. As a result, PTBNLs are basically always minor league prospects--though sometimes a long-term major league DL player is the PTBNL. http://www.purplerow.com/2009/3/5/779703/m...tions-part-five Isn't Garcia currently on the Rangers' 25 man active roster? If he is, he can't be the PTBNL according to this rule. Garcia is not on the Rangers 25 man roster according to their website.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:13 PM) I'd put Leury Garcia 10-15, and behind Sanchez. Based on the research I just did for the article. I think there is very little chance he's more than a utility guy. Less chance than Sanchez has, IMO. I'd have him 11th looking at my last list and that would have bumped Sanchez down to 12th. And I think he's got a real shot to be more than a utility guy, he reminds me a ton of these mega-hyped defensive shortstops teams are putting out there these days, except without some of the hype on his defense because they moved him around.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:12 PM) I mean....just going on a huge spending spree across the board the last two years, throwing good money after bad, and hoping some of it sticks. There's no arguing their Top 4-5-6-7 of K.Bryant/Baez/Soler/Olt/Almora/Alcantara is a LOT more interesting/exciting/intriguing. Of course, there are no guarantees with prospects, any more than there is picking random mutual funds. If you really want to pile up names though...the top 5 young starting pitchers in the White Sox org looks really intriguing as well if you count Sale. Sale, Santiago, Quintana, Rienzo, Johnson...looks pretty darn intriguing. And yes, there's no guarantee with any of those guys, but the White Sox may well have just as large of a fraction of a team put together with young guys as the Cubs. And ours are closer to the big leagues/more well established.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:05 PM) I still think the biggest area of need is CF. I'd really be intrigued to see an OF of De Aza, Garcia, Viciedo (left to right) next year.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 04:42 PM) Nope. 3rd or 4th rounder if memory serves. Jimmy raises a good point. I have seen this sentiment from a couple of scouts/writers that the Sox system gets overlooked because it has been so poor of late. While we have seen that mostly aimed at Erik Johnson, I have seen the idea mentioned on someone talking about Semien. I believe it was Sickels. One thing I think is definitely true about the White Sox's system is that it has turned out more talent over the last few years than the worst-system-in-baseball should be able to do. Much of that is in the pitching staff obviously, but that definitely would fit with this point.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 05:02 PM) I think it is disappointing myself. If our return is someone who might be a utility IF'er in the future. How many utility Infielders do we need? Dude...let's just put it this way...any time you trade for an infielder, it's possible his eventual spot could be "utility infielder". If you don't want guys who could possibly become utility infielders...don't trade for infielders. If L. Garcia winds up being a utility infielder, that should be looked at as a tolerable turnout but something of a disappointment for the hitting development people because he has the tools to be a regular IF. If Avisail Garcia hits .220 the next 3 seasons, does that mean we should be calling him a guy who might be a backup OF? How many backup OF's do we need?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 04:54 PM) There are players that are not subjected to the cap. These days who does that include?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 04:50 PM) And probably they will continue to dangle Nathan Jones/Reed out there...behind the scenes, until they get a taker. DeAza's a fourth outfielder with a lot of offensive tools but a lot of flaws, so the question will be whether they want to pay him to continue to hold down an outfield position or open another spot....but for who exactly? As mentioned, Trayce is not ready to go, and nobody wants to see the Mariners strategy of Bay/Morse/Ibanez, right? De Aza really isn't a 4th OF. As people keep noting, he's outproducing Rios this year. He's a real solid OF. He just isn't a CF right now, and he needs someone to keep his head in the game. This may still happen. If both Rienzo and Johnson are viewed as starting candidates, then the Sox have the 6 starter pile again. Of course, there are already open spots for Webb whenever they decide to give one of them to him, so Reed and Jones don't need to be dealt for that to happen.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 04:44 PM) Hmm...I read that closer to his most likely expected outcome. Just because Keith Law says it doesn't make it so. This guy has comparable numbers to a bunch of people who are getting penciled in as starting shortstops. He's very young, he's been pushed up aggressively, he supposedly has really solid fielding tools, and he has a real solid speed game. I'd say there's a decent chance he looks like a solid player in a year or two, and a decent chance he's a utility guy. I'll take that, there's some real upside here.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 04:41 PM) One in the same...except one is still a better glove than the other. You're right. I'm not sure how acquiring a utility infielder helps a rebuild. If the White Sox had traded Peavy for Jose Iglesias, would you be saying the same thing?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 04:40 PM) It seems very unlikely that Hahn couldn't have got a substantially better prospect if he was willing to pay even half of Rios' contract. And for a team currently scheduled to have a $46m payroll next year, that is frustrating. The Cubs have been doing this for two years and already their future looks extremely bright depsite having way more tearing down to do than us, and yet our front office won't spend a dime on minor league talent. The CBA won't let us spend this $60m payroll disparity on young talent, so where is it going to go? Kendry Morales and the like? Whatever -- that's a recipe for a middling AL Central team for the next eight years. Throw every dime you spend on Morales at getting some actual impact talent from teams you trade with and we may actually have a shot at winning in the next 2-3 years. Seriously, what impact talent have the Cubs gotten by including money with people? Travis Wood? They've included money with people to dump terrible contracts and gotten back nothing for them. Teams aren't doing what you guys are saying they're doing.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 04:37 PM) Suddenly a super sub is a quality return...c'mon, stop forcing bs down our throats. Yes, a 22 year old whose floor is a super sub is a quality return.

QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 04:36 PM) If Alexei will only return us players slated to be UTIL or replacement level players, I don't understand the point of trading him. That's why I don't trade him yet. I hold for a really solid offer at least for now. The thing that could make me trade Alexei for scraps is Semien. If I send him to AAA to start next year and he destroys the league for 2 months, a-la what Phegley did this year, ok, then I'm ready to move Alexei for a lower price.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 04:35 PM) Good post. It is weird to see the kool-aid drank here since this trade does little to nothing to help either side of the spectrum, the rebuild crowd or the retool crowd. We will see what the plan is this offseason. We got a 22 year old slick fielding SS whose floor appears to be "really good utility player" and whose ceiling could very well be "Better than the guy the Red Sox sent to Detroit for Garcia". I have no idea how you could claim this does nothing to help the retooling process.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 9, 2013 -> 04:32 PM) We have a defensive capable SS already. Who the f*** is going to actually hit for us? Presumably that defensive capable SS is on the trading block in the near future. Viciedo, Garcia, De Aza, Phegley, and Beckham could well form the nucleus of a solid lineup if they can be developed. Gillaspie could be a solid contributor, or at worst a good contributor as a platoon player. We're missing 1b and DH looking past next year. DH is fillable, or they could try some combination of Wilkins and Flowers at those positions if they wanted to get crazy. You're projecting these guys to be failures, particularly Viciedo obviously, when the organization is not doing so.