Milkman delivers

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) I'm not suggesting he give up the conversation if he could actually add something to it besides calling it stupid, and yet still participating in it. Just like thinking the Sox are still the worst thing going and still hanging on every pitch. If you don't have anything better to do than to hang up on things you think are stupid or torturous, well that doesn't say much for you. That is the point of both of those responses. You're still losing both arguments

When added to the idea that you should stop watching the team if you don't like what you see, the translation seems to be that you shouldn't argue with or have a differing viewpoint from SS2k5 or he won't admit when he's wrong and suggest you give up the conversation since he's losing in it in everyone else's eyes

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 03:30 PM) I have the statistical evidence, so none of that matters. Well at least that is what you were saying before it turned out your statistical evidence wasn't that good. Honestly I have no other idea how to try to explain this to you, so that you will understand the premise, so this time I am going to type this really slowly to try to help. Players are affected by their environment. If you think that idea is as stupid as you think, quit f***ing arguing it, because that make you just as dumb as you say the premise is. Man, you and ptatc might be the only two people on Earth who think that's correct.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:56 PM) What the hell else could one get out of them? In one post, Sqwert asserts that it is your premise that the disparity in records is due to the booing from the fans. In the next post, your own, you then say the following: Hmm, that sure seems like someone who is defending their own premise to me... You then go on to debate this with Sqwert over the course of the next several posts... Now tell me, if this was not your premise, why the hell did you make such an effort to defend it? Work on your reading comprehension!

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 02:53 PM) No. What the hell does that even mean? Did ptac talk to each player individually and interview them? What are the quantifiable results of these interviews? Why are the pitchers performing worse when they aren't being booed? Carlos isn't being booed so why are his numbers worse? Why is Rios playing better at home even though he's getting booed? Why is AJ playing better at home while getting booed on the road? Explain the s***ty home record before June when no one was getting booed. This argument is so one-sided it's hilarious.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:46 PM) In Swisher's case? Probably. If it had happened to say Rios this year? No way. This team has had quite a few guys leave here under better than ideal circumstances, yet I've never once heard of Konerko taking on the role of captain. He's a great guy and I'm sure everyone likes him, but that doesn't qualify him to be the captain. There are certain responsibilities a captain has to take on, and I don't think Konerko's personality fits with them. But it's not like it's Konerko's fault. I don't think he demanded the captain mantle, but rather it was thrust upon him and he accepted because of his personality. It was just a bad choice from the beginning.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:42 PM) Well, I guess it's just a difference of opinion then. I think this team has been built to succeed in the postseason; the problem has been they haven't been consistent enough within the division to get there. I would rather have kept this current core and had chances at postseason play and then rebuild when the core has passed their prime than rebuild back in 2008. But I guess it's a point reasonable men can disagree on. I suppose. But I'm still right!

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:40 PM) So you must be the parent who knows their kids suck, yet spends all day in the casino and leaves their kid in the car as a punishment? No, I'd try to get to the bottom of what is wrong. And if the kid were at fault, he'd be punished and forced to do more work to raise his grades. I don't gamble at all, actually

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:38 PM) The writers in Chicago are spineless. The only person they really target it Oney when it comes to the Sox. They never really report on what is said in the clubhouse until after it is done. But with guys like Swisher, who was universally hated upon his departure, don't you think we would have heard a story about Konerko confronting him at some point after he left?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:31 PM) Yes, and you were clearly wrong about that, since they won the division in 2008. Who knows what happens if Quentin doesn't f*** up his hand with a month remaining. Let me ask you this. If Adam Dunn had performed at his career averages to this point in the season, where do you think we would be in the standings right now? I completely disagree that I would have been wrong just because we won a bad division in 2008 and couldn't hang with the serious AL contenders. If Dunn were himself, we'd probably be at the top of this division, but we'd still be a weak playoff contender in comparison to the rest of the AL. I have wanted us to rebuild in order to attempt to make ourselves a powerhouse playoff team.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:22 PM) But this is entirely 20/20 hindsight monday morning quarterbacking. The team was a disaster in 07. The team won the division in 08. The team's biggest weakness last season was having no effective DH. Adam Dunn was signed this past offseason, and most of the remainder of the team was kept intact. The team has been worse this season, despite that signing. It's really easy to say that things have been terrible and going downhill for years, but they really have not. They've been hovering around a position where it is unclear whether the whole thing needs to be torn down or whether the existing core needs to be dismantled and a new core needs to be built. I respect anyone's opinion on which path we should have taken. But where I get frustrated is when fans think there is some easy path to success or that this year's team was determined to fail from the outset. A lot smarter men than most of us have tried to answer these questions and been wrong. So it's just not as clear-cut as many would like for it to be. No, man, no. I've been calling for a rebuild since 2007. Go back and read my posts if you care to. I don't like being characterized as being a Monday morning quarterback just because most others weren't saying it.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:22 PM) Aren't all White Sox fans gullible then? I mean, the team has about a 1% success rate in winning the WS over the past 93 seasons, yet everyone still watches hoping for a WS win. I still watch even when I don't feel that they have a chance. I believe I watched (or followed online) every game in 2007. So no, not every fan is gullible. If you go from believing the team is done to believing over the course of three days because they beat one of the worst teams in baseball, you're gullible.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:14 PM) Some people hate who their family is, doesn't mean they don't love them or want them to make a change. That's actually sort of the comparison I was going to make, except I was going to compare posters like SS2k5 to one of those parents who will, under no circumstance, believe that their child did, or would ever, do anything wrong. The child is failing, so it's the teachers fault, or the classroom environment. Whereas, others want to see if there is a problem with any combination of that.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:09 PM) A good captain would call out his players for struggling in front of the GM or in front of the media? Ah yes, exactly what I said. If KW came to Konerko and asked him if changes were necessary, I'm sure he did it in front of the media or his teammates. And yes, if Konerko had ever called out another teammate, I'm sure we would have heard of it at some point over the years from a beat writer.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:12 PM) The biggest issue with this viewpoint is fans, at least the vast vast vast majority, don't know what the correct moves are either. I always get a chuckle out of the arrogance of the fans that think they have all the answers... I don't have all of the answers, but it didn't take a genius to see that this team has been steadily going down the wrong path basically since 2007. Changes have been becoming more and more necessary, but the franchise has been in absolute denial about it.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:09 PM) Players do listen to the fans and it does bother them. They discuss it in the locker room before and after the game. It does effect their play even though try to ignore it. It obviously didn't effect the whole season bit as the difficulties steam rolled through the season it can compound the problem. I'm not saying they don't deserve it because many players have had horrible years. Most of these guys were coddled their whole lives and when someone like Dunn is thrown into a spotlight and doesn't perform, they often don't know how to deal with it. These aren't robots. They're usually prima donnas who are more sensitve then the average person. For you to think that it doesn't effect them as mutli-million dollar prima donnas is laughable. I'm sure it affects them, and I don't believe I said otherwise. But they fully deserve the boos they get, and to blame the fans for it in any way is laughable. I suppose fans should sit on their hands and only remove them to politely clap each time a player has a success. Otherwise, deathly quiet.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:04 PM) And you are responsible for your own misery if you know that the team will fail, but watch it anyway. I will, because I'm a fan that wants the team to begin to make the correct moves, not a fan who will gladly make any excuse to allow the team to continue down the wrong path.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 01:01 PM) Wow, it's amazing how negative & depressing some people are. What's wrong with some people trying to find some fun & positivity out of the last two months of the season?? They know there is no baseball to be played from October til April, so might as well try to enjoy what's left, even if it probably will suck. Just because you don't look at that way, doesn't mean you just have to shoot down all other fans. Some of these people were saying recently that the season was done. Since the Sox have swept a terrible team, there's now reason for hope to them? No, that's pure gullibility.

QUOTE (Melissa1334 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:58 PM) so u have to be a loud mouth like peavy? lol No, but there can be a nice middle ground. It seems to me that Konerko has the same mindset as the management and front office of just waiting it out. Remember when it was said that Konerko/Dye/Thome told KW to not make any moves and that the team was fine when a move or two would've obviously helped the team? A good captain would say what was necessary, and he would get into someone's face for lack of hustle and such. Konerko himself doesn't even seem to hustle that much, but he might just be that slow. I really don't think that Konerko is the kind of guy that would pull another player aside to chide them, but more of just a nice guy that nobody has a problem with.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:57 PM) Actually I am the one of the few people who has tried holding the players responsible for their play all year long instead of Ozzie, Kenny, Greg, the beer vendor, or whoever the target of the day is. Instead of actually looking for a reason to enjoy baseball this year, you find all of the negatives and then spend all day complaining about them. I don't get that mentality at all. Why do you want to be miserable? The team makes me miserable with their play. It isn't just the players. It's the players and management.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 11:04 AM) The guys who are struggling the most also have played the worst, and are getting the harshest receptions. Their numbers are also worse at home. It's always anything to deflect the blame from the people actually responsible with you, isn't it? As long as it's something that reflects negatively on the Sox or the White Sox franchise as a whole, you'll make an excuse that it's somebody else. Now it's the fans because we're such big meanies. I mean, seriously. You can't be f***ing serious with this argument. You can't be sitting there at your computer and actually believing what you are writing. You simply can't. I don't know what it is about you and a few other posters on this site, but you never attack the players, managers, or their performances. Instead, you take the aggression and disappointment with the team and you direct it at the posters and other fans.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 10:09 AM) Maybe the booing and empty seats is adding up? AHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!11!

QUOTE (sircaffey @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 10:44 AM) I don't necessarily think it's a shot directly at Ozzie. None of the players have shown any sense of leadership this entire season as well. Looking at the team from the outside, you don't get a sense of leadership from anyone (front office, management, or players). I would ask the same question. Who is actually leading this team? That's what I took from it. And that is one of the reasons I didn't really support Konerko as captain. The guy is just way too soft-spoken to have that job.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:36 PM) So why subject yourself to the torture if you already know the answer? Because I'm a fan and I can't tear myself away from the team. I would prefer to watch them make the necessary changes.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 8, 2011 -> 12:26 PM) More amazing than that is the group that hates everything to do with this team, yet is watching all of these games and spending a ton of time bellyaching about it. If it is that bad, walk away. And if we walked away, posters like you would be calling everyone fair-weather fans. We can't complain when the team so obviously needs much restructuring, and if we refuse to be blind to those needs, we're just dark clouds. We can't win. But either can the Sox, so I guess we're a perfect fit.