DrunkBomber

QUOTE(lostfan @ Mar 25, 2008 -> 05:58 PM) It's really ironic that you say this to me while you do the same thing. I'm done with this. Knock yourself out. Did you miss the part about me explaining how affirmative action directly affected my family? How did it affect you again?

QUOTE(iamshack @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 11:33 PM) Affirmative Action is absolutely an attempt to artificially "even the score." And yes, they are trying to even the score in regards to the socioeconomic advantages white people (or other people with socioeconomic advantages) have in terms of opportunity. Yes, the fact that you have little or no control over what situation you were placed in is a key argument against Affirmative Action. I don't know that there are many people that suggest Affirmative Action is the ideal situation, and many people think we would be better without it, but it is a way to artificially speed up the process a bit. And don't think I am some raging proponent of the system either. I went to law school. The application process is fairly cutthroat. Don't think for a minute that I wasn't denied admission to law school in lieu of less-qualified candidates because of racial quotas and diversity. But it is what it is and I accept that. If it's a price I have to pay for having many of the other advantages in life that I have, than so be it. Can you tell me what these advantages white people have are because I would love to hear from you what these apparent advantages are? What in my life has been handed to me because Im white? The fact that you try to throw in that you went to law school is a joke and is so ridiculous to add because you think it gives you some sort of credibility. Your generalizations are prejudice and are complete stereotypes but you, as many others, think its ok to use them because they are geared towards white people. In this day and age blacks have more of an opportunity than whites because of things like affirmative action. It is such a cop out joke to try and use that excuse anymore like this was 50 years ago. If people cant be responsible for their own actions than Im not gonna take any heat for it because Im white. All the bulls*** stereotypes you claim are exclusive to blacks applied to how I grew up but I moved passed it without my palms up waiting for some liberal to drop me a dollar on their way to vote for Obama and think that theyve done their part. I grew up in poverty, got the grades to get into college, worked my way through the corporate ladder on my own. Not because Im white but because I have enough respect for myself to try and make something of my life and for someone to say that since Im white there were more doors open to me is racist and if this is coming from a white person, who maybe had more advantages than others so their view is jaded, than theres a book you need to read by Harriet Beecher Stowe.

QUOTE(lostfan @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 07:41 PM) No, that's not entirely true... does the system allow that to happen? Yes. Is that necessarily the goal of the program? No. It's more of an unintended consequence. Ok let's say we have to employ 10 guys, but affirmative action laws say we need to employ at least 2 minority workers. If we can find 2 workers that are perfectly qualified on their own accord, then no harm no foul, nobody's being disqualified from anything. Hell we can even hire 3, 4, it doesn't matter. The problem is when you can't, or when you start running out. Then you get into a situation where you're actually competing with other people who need to fill that quota too and we might even end up having to pay them more money to convince them to work for us. Then not only are we employing substandard candidates, we're giving them preferential treatment. That's how affirmative action, in its current form, creates more problems than it solves. It's not really intended to be racist but it can actually cause the injustices it's supposed to fix. Yes that is entirely true. Unless you have been introduced to it first hand then quit pretending to be an expert. The point of it is to hold spots for MINORITIES that arent qualified because if they were qualified they wouldnt need the spot reserved.

QUOTE(KipWellsFan @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 11:22 PM) I don't think that's actually a fact. At least I couldn't find anything in a basic google search. I refuse to believe that if Michelle or Barack were to come up to me to shake my hand, they'd think less or more of me because of my skin color. Well again you bring so much to the discussion. Since you cant find it in a google search. Why not ask another supporter if its true..?

QUOTE(iamshack @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 09:46 PM) Well, I am not in the business of calling other people racists, and I certainly will refrain from doing so in this case. But I have to question if you really understand the meaning of the term racist as you use it and how serious an accusation that is to make... As I failed to understand your logic in describing how Michelle Obama must be racist because of what she said in her senior thesis or in what she said about not being proud of America, I once again fail to understand how pointing out that whites have significant societal advantages over minority groups in this country makes me racist. For the sake of argument, this is the definition of "racist" according to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary: 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination If you review my post from above that you are commenting on, you'll notice that not once did I claim white people enjoy advantages in this country because of any human trait or capacity or any racial differences that exist between the races in this country. Neither did I make any judgments based upon racial prejudice or discrimination. On the contrary, I mentioned socioeconomic advantages that whites have that produce an inherently superior opportunity to "succeed" in this country (at least according to the commonly accepted notion of what "success" in America is). Balta elaborated upon those advantages in his post, and I believe they would be fairly impossible to dispute, in general. So while it may be unfortunate that Affirmative Action is an end-result attempt at evening the score a bit, it is a much less daunting and more immediate method of giving minorities a chance to overcome the aforementioned socioeconomic disadvantages they face. So how exactly does acknowledging that make me racist, or make it a racist point of view? Affirmative action isnt evening a score. Who are they evening the score with? White people? I have zero control of what ever score needs to be settled. Since were using definitions and you say that you say that you didnt use any prejudice lets think about what it means. Pre judging someone. Like judging a white person as someone born on the top of the totem pole that has everything handed to them. That is prejudice and thats the problem. If people want to get rid of the resentment blacks and whites have with each other both sides need make sacrifices to look past the issues. That prejudice is a form of racism and is a stereotype. Stuff like school funding shouldnt have anything to do with this conversation because it isnt something only black people have to face. Its a matter of economics. If people that are in poor areas arent happy with what the hand they are dealt then maybe they should try to overcome it instead of blaming it on others. There are poor white people in those neighborhoods too but there are no white people moving ahead in line to get in college because they live there and that isnt fair. To be honest I would think a minority would find affirmative action offensive because its basically saying they need a head start. Everyday there are people that work their way out of poverty, white and black, instead of blaming others. With the strides this country has made in terms of equality and race relations making it sound like white people have all these doors open to them that minorites dont is ridiculous. In this day and age it is the exact opposite..

QUOTE(iamshack @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 08:45 PM) I'm having a really difficult time understanding how the last two posts in this thread came from the same person... I agree with Balta about the purpose of Obamas speech being to try to discuss resentments people have about others. However your last post is absolutely to a tee what I am talking about in terms of the problem. That whole post was blatant racism but you seem to think its ok because its geared towards white people. When people say things like that it sets this conversation back decades. We will never be able to move on and get past all the resentment when people continue to say in this day and age that resentment towards white is justified because they were born at the top of a totem pole. By law, straight white males under 55 are the only group of people that arent protected by law from discrimination which is bulls***

It sounds like youre very interested in her for the right reasons so I honestly wouldnt give up quite yet. No matter what happens youre gonna be hurt if you have to make the decision to give up on her. I would play it completely different though. You have to come across as if youve moved on first and foremost. She will be very curious what changed your feelings and she may even try to play the game back at you. I would even go as far as to say flirt with her friends or even get one of their numbers and try to talk to them casually and that will really make her think. Since you know her well enough I would say try to portray yourself as a person she would think highly of but keep an edge and create some kind of mystery that will keep her interest. Girls that age are hot and cold so often that you may be in a lose/lose situation but it wont hurt to try and if you dont you may regret it for a while. I would honestly just say when youre around her make her feel like her or anyone else around you is lucky to be in your company and just be very deliberate in your actions and always show confidence without coming across as cocky. Then if she starts to come around after a while act as if youre letting your guard down around her and show her a glimpse of the side of you she may have liked when you were in high school.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 07:57 PM) And the beauty of this whole discussion, to my eyes, is that its exactly the discussion that Barack wanted to initiate with his speech last week, and I've been waiting for it to get to this point before pointing it out. If you read his speech, he pointed out that yes, people like Rev. Wright are angry. But at some level, they certainly have a right to be angry. This country has been inhabited by people from Europe for almost 400 years now, and we've actually treated people who don't look like white people as 2nd or 3rd or 3/5 class citizens for all except the last 30-40 years or so in the actual law of the country, and even after that there are built in disadvantages. But on the other hand, there are people who on the other side have legit grievances also. Is it appropriate that qualified people are left out of jobs or universities because of race? No. But is it appropriate that people can't get the appropriate qualifications they need to get those jobs or admissions because they were unfortunate enough to be born to the wrong family or in the wrong socio-economic status? Similarly no. THere isn't an easy solution to this except to fix the system itself. Affirmative action is a band aid. Compared to doing nothing, it's probably a good thing. But it is certain to have repercussions, and those are worth acknowledging as real. Both sides have grievances, but as long as they spend their time blaming each other, being angry at each other, swearing at each other, and using those lines to divide us, we'll never be able to fix the actual problems of people being unable to get ahead in this country. I actually agree with you 100% in terms of this being Barracks purpose for the speech. Thats the point Ive been trying to make about the purpose of his speech in terms of moving past the stalemate.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 07:46 PM) I agree with you that it is a shame that some white students who might have otherwise been accepted to a university were not because of artificial quotas instituted into the application process. And I don't necessarily agree that Affirmative Action is the best solution to the problem, if it is a solution at all. However, you seem to be discounting a whole host of societal advantages that work in the favor of whites, beginning at birth. I just think some people really hesitate to sympathize with the plight of a people who've been at the top of the totem pole throughout this nation's history. This statement justified everything I said. Societal advantages? Says who? Top of the totem pole? This is exactly what Im talking about. The sense of entitlement because people think things are in favor for whites. In this day and age that statement is absolute garbage. So since Im white I havent worked for everything I have? Ive never been discriminated against? Why should I sympathize with with anyone because Im white and apparently I have advantages in my favor since birth. That is such a racist statement. Its hypocritical and is the problem with this country and that speech.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 07:38 PM) I don't think a whole lot of people are trying to change your opinion. Myself (and others) are challenging your logical process of coming to the conclusions that you have come to. Well to be perfectly honest I dont think anybody really has shown anything close to justifying challenging my logic or how I draw my conclusions. Half of the people chiming in have no idea what Im even talking about but feel the need to try and discredit me. for example, this was thrown at me and the author of this gem managed to throw in that his opinions are right and my opinions are wrong. I tried to quote the thesis and I had someone basically accuse me of lying because the thesis wasnt available and then when I post the link to the thesis nobody even acknowledges it. Ive had people basically say Im calling every black person racist. Just because people are scared to talk about racism towards white people because of fear they will be called a racist doesnt mean that it isnt an issue that should be discussed. This isnt the 60s and when a candidate for president tries to end the stalemate that exists by promoting equality but has what I consider questionable tactics it makes me wonder about his ability to run a country.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 07:37 PM) Affirmative Action has been an extremely controversial subject in this country since it's inception. To claim that the affect this has on qualified white people is "never really discussed" is one of the more inaccurate statements one can make. The majority of the time its discussed it is geared towards the minority end of it. Hell, look through this thread. People like lostfan saying that affirmative action worked because she graduated with honors without mentioning the person who didnt get in.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 07:34 PM) Well that's your opinion. I don't want to get into an argument about whether the fact that they went to that church makes them racist or not because there is already another thread on that. What I am challenging is the other logical leaps that you've made. I know its my opinion. I have said that time and time again. Im just expressing it and its ridiculous for people to say that their opinions are more justified than mine. That wasnt aimed at you either.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 07:31 PM) So is this where your bitterness towards her lies? Yes and no. Ive seen the affect that affirmative action can have on someones life and future from the side of the person that is never really discussed in the matter and IMO the way she carries herself and the things said in her thesis are a slap in the face to the real victims of race in that situation.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 07:14 PM) If you believe she is a racist because her pastor is, than just say that, don't reach for other things that don't imply anything close to her being racist. Secondly, even I did accept that she "played the race card on a school that let her in because of her race" (which I don't), I really fail to see how that makes her a racist. Can you explain the logical connection you are making? Saying that she felt she was looked-upon differently at Princeton than other students because of her race does not mean she is a racist. It means she felt uncomfortable there. Because she may have been accepted at Princeton due to Affirmative Action she is not allowed to comment on how she felt she was treated there? Thirdly, you said she "slammed the system that she benefitted from." What system is that other than Affirmative Action? Are you implying she slammed the US and that's disrespectful to the students who did not get into Princeton because of the quotas necessary to fulfill because of Affirmative Action? Are you saying that you have never slammed any federal system? You've never complained about taxes or medicare or anything? And if you did, does that make you unpatriotic or homophobic or sexist or racist? First of all its not just because of her pastor. This guy is one of the most racist people I have heard speak in a long time and the fact that they went there for such a long time and were married by him and that they let him be the godfather to their children. So, if something happened to them they would want him to raise their kids. Thats not just a pastor to someone. I have other thoughts about it but theyre just opinions, the one reason should be enough for now. Im not trying to rate her level of racism, just showing that its there.

QUOTE(lostfan @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 05:13 PM) If she qualifies she deserved to get in, regardless of what race she is and whether she got in because of AA. End of story IMO. I think she decisively showed everyone that too. Here's where the argument fails - yes, if by during the process of meeting a quota you have to admit less qualified minority candidates over more qualified white students in order to comply. That is the problem with affirmative action and I agree with you 100%. But to say that everyone who gets in because of AA squeezes out a more qualified white student means that no AA students are actually qualified which then means that minority students are, by default, less qualified than white students. Obviously this isn't true as demonstrated by Mrs. Obama. Thats what quotas are. If they just let everyone in then there would be no need for affirmative action. Affirmative action is set up to reserve spots for minority candidates that werent qualified enough to get in on there own. Its not like there are two entry piles: white and affirmative action. If a minority was qualified based on their accomplishments they would get in on their own. So basically, if she got in because of affirmative action than one person that was more qualified didnt get in. Now Im not disagreeing with you that it worked for her in the sense that she used the opportunity to the fullest and did well there, that obviously isnt whats being debated, its that someone who was more qualified missed out on going to school there. I would also like to point out that I am very aware of how the process works because my brother who is 18 months older than me had to go to Western Illinois even though he had already gotten into U of I and got a letter saying they regretted to inform him that the school had not reached their obligatory racial quotas at the time of his acceptance but he was welcome to apply the following semester.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 06:47 PM) Why, if even she did get into Princeton because of Affirmative Action, and she wasn't proud of her country until now, does that make her a racist? Secondly, just because she may have gotten into Princeton because of Affirmative Action, does that preclude her from commenting on how she felt as a member of the student body there? Thirdly, at what point did she slam Affirmative Action? Fourthly, even if she did claim she was a victim of discrimination at Princeton, how does that make the white person that didn't get into Princeton the "only" victim? First off, I think her involvement with that church and pastor alone makes her a racist. I think trying to use the race card on a school that let her in because of her race makes her a racist. Also, I never said she slammed affirmative action, I said she slammed the system that she benefited from and I think thats disrespectful to the people who didnt get in that were more qualified than her.

QUOTE(KipWellsFan @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 05:03 PM) I think I'm right and you're wrong and until you're able to explain why Michelle Obama is a racist that's what I'll think. I might let you get away with calling Michelle naive, hypocritical, or bitter but sometimes, whether it's an opinion or not, it's wrong and I can't help but point it out. Well lucky for me what you think about my opinions or anyone elses means absolutely nothing without anything to add to the conversation

QUOTE(BigSqwert @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 04:50 PM) But it seems like you are blaming her because of affirmative action. And calling her racist because of it. Thats not what Im trying to do. Im saying that if there is the possibility that she got into school because of AA and then said she hasnt been proud of her country until now then she is racist. Then to write a whole thesis basically calling everyone at the school racist then that reflects poorly on her as well. The system that she slammed is the one that gave her an unfair advantage and for her to dismiss that fact now and act as if she was some sort of victim of discrimination at Princeton when in actuality the person that didnt get into Princeton was the only victim in this case.

QUOTE(lostfan @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 03:31 PM) Whether she got in because of AA or not I highly doubt Mrs. Obama was so egregiously unqualified that she denied a would-be deserving white student from getting in. All you have to do is look at the end result, I mean it's not like she is some hood rat from 63rd street, she graduated with honors from some of the best schools in the country. That to me makes this entire argument irrelevant, and it's why I haven't chimed in until now. If she did get in because of AA that doesnt have to mean she was unqualified but it does however mean that she got in ahead of someone more qualified and that person didnt get in because of her. Its this train of thought that is the problem with affirmative action.

QUOTE(KipWellsFan @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 04:11 PM) I think you'd be better of reserving the term racist for those who really deserve it. Race itself is a social construct and doesn't really mean anything. I highly doubt that either of the Obamas think that people of this or that race have inherent qualities from birth that make them lesser, or better. Heres the problem with your statement, first of all, what you THINK is better for me in terms of what I form my opinions on means nothing to me and what you HIGHLY DOUBT about the Obamas is your opinion. Who are you to think that your opinion means more than anyone elses. "Race itself is a social construct and doesnt mean really mean anything?" Comments like that might get you a C- in a community college Poly Sci class but they have no merit in a real life conversation. Especially one in which you are trying to discredit someone elses opinion based on your own.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 03:24 PM) So, in other words, you don't have anything to back up your assertions aside from a quote from a friend? Aside from that quote from her friend, there's no evidence pointing towards her getting in because of AA. If she truely wasn't qualified to be there, would she have excelled and graduated with honors? Doesn't that prove that she was qualified regardless of admissions standards? Do you think its possible for a black person to be treated differently because of the color of her skin? For whites to look at her in school and think "I wonder if she's only here because of AA?" I heard some classmates make comments like that at U of I about minority students. I don't support AA and I agree that it is a form of racism. There's still not much basis for your claims. There's your problem; your most solid basis for your claim that its a FACT that she got into Princeton or Harvard because of AA is a quote from a friend in Newsweek that M. Obama disagrees with. Well basically in your estimation there is no way that it can be proven so Im not going to continue to jump through hoops to try to appease you. If there is enough there for her friend to be quoted in a very credible magazine saying that she benefited from affirmative action and she is ok with it than that is enough for me to form my opinion. Affirmative action was also one of the topics that was addressed in Barracks speech on race which leads me to think that theres a reason for him to to have brought that up. Now, if you want to play the car that she might have gotten into college because of AA but there is no way for her to know for sure, then in my opinion, that possibility alone should be enough for her question the things shes says about this country. Also, it doesnt say that she disagrees with that quote, it said a campaign spokesperson disagrees with it.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 03:12 PM) I'm sure the thought crossed her mind. She wrote a thesis about it. Does she KNOW that she got in because of AA? Has she clearly stated that she believes she got in because of AA? The article you keep posting is a quote from Verna Williams, not Michele Obama. The reason why I posted that one is because Newsweek is the most credible source I found when searching for proof so I apologize for the confusion. There are a lot of political blogs that talk about the issue but again there is no definitive proof. That quote however is from someone close to her and is about Michelle so its not like Im pulling this out of thin air. EVeryone in this thread seems to think Im making this up when it has been a popular topic on news shows and articles online and even people close to her seem to think AA played a part in her education. If its worth anything I can post links to the blogs that talk about it but they arent credible enough to post alone.

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 03:09 PM) I am lost here. So Obama's wife got into Princeton due to affirmative action, she writes that she felt that she was not totally accepted because of this. She then proceeds to go to Harvard....I got this, I think Then she comes out and states that she is finally happy that the country risen up to back her husband and pay attention and now she is proud to be an American. I am a little uncertain as to how this translates into racist behavior. Clearly there is a divide to degree where blacks and whites are not comfortable wiht one another as they are with their own class. She writes about this in a Sociology thesis. A couple of things what exactly is racist here? Also, I was not aware that she was that well educated. Hell if Obama wins she can run for Senate and President in 2020. Sorry if I am missing the point. Since its apparent that nobody will acknowledge the possibility of AA unless it is written in finite I will state why I think she is racist contingent on this being true, which I strongly believe it is. IMO, AA is a form of racism in its own degree and if it is used then it doesnt only affect the beneficiary. That would mean someone more qualified was turned down because of the color of their skin and missed out on going to Princeton. Then she writes about having a chip on her shoulder and that people treated her differently because of the color of her skin and she is making it sound like she is some kind of victim of racism even though the ONLY victim of racism in that case is the student that got denied entry to the university. So in this country that she has never been proud of until recently gave her an advantage with her education and instead of being grateful she acts like she was entitled to something. I also hold her to the same criticism I do Barrack in terms of choosing their church and continuing to support such an open racist.

QUOTE(StrangeSox @ Mar 24, 2008 -> 03:03 PM) I'm still going to question how any individual person knows that they got into school on their own merit or because of AA. She may believe she benefited from AA, but does she know for sure? Would should still have gotten in without AA? It could be a number of things. It could have been because of her standardized testing scores compared to universities requirements. Someone could have told her, etc. Obviously the thought has crossed her mind because it has been brought up and discussed on various platforms.

Out of curiosity are any of the people that have continued to question my stance on Michelle getting into Princeton because of affirmative action going to address the proof I posted or just ignore it and move on to something else? Im just waiting for someone to tell me that they are going to take the word of a campaign spokesperson over the actual person that is the topic of discussion. Everyone was up in arms when I bring this up and then when I show where Im getting the info from nobody is even going to consider the fact that maybe its true?