RME JICO

chisox72, I agree 110%. Taking a step back, I think they made their minds up about Buehrle in the offseason. The guy was given the ball every opening day for several years, then all of a sudden you give the ball to someone else. Some will say that was because how he pitched in 2006, but if that was the case Garland would've gotten it once or twice based on performance.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 07:27 AM) Frank left the sox and had a great year last year and is playing pretty well this year. Its true they are at different points, but my point is the euphoria centered around the player itself. Buerhle cannot be part of a rebuild, if you keep buerhle then you keep garland, that will be two pitchers who will be a third of your payroll. The math doesn't work. You need to get more guys like Danks in here, and build from there. Just the math alone doesn't workI think Frank's departure was lessened by the acquisition of Thome. If the Sox bring in someone comparable to Mark before 2008, while also getting some talent in the trade, the whole issue behind this will go away. This is not about Mark Buehrle the person, it is about replacing someone with his talent level for a comparable price tag and comparable production. If the Sox get some great talent in a trade, while also acquiring an impact player via Free Agency with the money saved, I am all for it. However, this situation does not look like that will happen. They will trade Mark for the best available package which will be significantly less than what it could have been, and they will only sign mid-level guys in the offseason who are coming off an injury or had a down year in hopes of a rebound. QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 07:28 AM) KW didn't acquire him, and he doesn't sell tickets.Buehrle doesn't sell tickets? I beg to differ. He is one of the faces of the organization, and people come out just to see him pitch.

QUOTE(mmmmmbeeer @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 06:47 AM) MB is very overrated on this site, always has been. He's referred to as "elite" or as an "ace" way too often. It's like people think that we're dealing with Peavy or Santana here. This franchise will survive without MB. You think $14M in today's market is a steal, but would you freak out if they gave Garland $14M? They're the same pitcher. If our payroll drops dramatically next season, which it will, we're not going to compete. Why, if we're not going to compete, would you want $14M of the payroll to go towards one player who pitches once every 5 days. He's never even won 20 games in his career, it's not like every 5th day you're practically guaranteed a victory. He's a good pitcher, no doubt, but far from irreplaceable. No player should be making $14M/yr on a team in its first year of a rebuilding process.Ok, where would you rate Buehrle as a pitcher since his first full year (2001)? What is your definition of elite? He might not meet the criteria for an "Ace" because he doesn't strike out a lot of batters. However, since 2001, he is 6th in wins, 15th in ERA, 5th in Complete Games, 2nd in Innings Pitched, and 6th in Shutouts with 1 no-hitter. When people rate pitchers over an era, Buerhle has arguably been one of the best pitchers in baseball since 2001. Your argument about 20 wins if funny. Is 20 some magical barrier? Him not being a 20 game winner makes the fact that he is 6th in wins since 2001 even stronger. That means he is very consistent. Loaiza won 20+ games for the Sox, I guess he is better than Buehrle. If you are not going to spend $14 million on quality starting pitching because you are rebuilding, then where are you spending it? The fastest way back to the top, even when rebuilding is by locking up your quality starters, and Buehrle would be one. You also say he is far from irreplaceable. So you are saying there are players available for $14 million that can take over his production? Please name those players that are available, because I could not find one that was even close in price or production.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:38 PM) I know, but with no option this time. Just the original deal that Kenny offered him... I guess no one counters Kenny and gets away with it. or there never was a deal that Kenny was willing to accept. Wow, this thread is nearing the most posts and most views of all-time.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:33 PM) What's next? Buehrle and the agent concede to a 4 year 56 mil deal with no NTC and Kenny turns it down saying it was too late?Um, that is basically what they just did.

QUOTE(rangercal @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:17 PM) I just noticed the subtitle reads : Sox to Trade, Extend, or Let Buehrle Play Out Contract are you sure its going to be one of those options? What other option is there? Waive him? QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:16 PM) wow, that is ridiculous... it really looks like my feeling that KW and the org. just want to trade Buehrle now is true.Yeah, so basically Buehrle conceded every demand and added an option that would not even affect the Sox's and they turned it down. That clearly shows they never intended to keep him.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:08 PM) for me being lazy and not wanting to read 10 pages pf discussion... could someone get me up to speed on the situation?Basically Buerhle's side removed the full NTC demand but added an 5th year option ($17) that would kick in if he was traded, and the Sox refused. - quickman thinks we need to trade everyone; and that Konerko was a horrible resigning. - most would be satisfied with a comparable package for Buehrle, but most believe that it will not happen - everyone is upset with how the organization is handling the situation

QUOTE(TitoMB345 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 09:03 PM) I can't believe this franchise is going down the s***ter so quickly. I bet attendence drops DRASTICALLY from the day Buehrle is traded. f***, I don't know if I'm gonna go to any more games. He's my favorite. It's like Michael Vick, you pay him to fill the seats, no matter how much he wants.With all the dog fighting stuff, he may be a bad example.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 08:48 PM) Even though I'm mad now, I'll be ok with everything if we get good value in return. There is no package that a team is willing to part with that will bring the same value back as Mark.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 08:31 PM) agreed, but we are not in contention and won't be for a few years. We are old and slow. We have nobody in the minors, and are far from competing in this division. Therefore you rebuild, and if you believe you cannot contend next year or even the year after then you start getting players back. YOU SELL. That is what they really want to do. They will tell the public different, because they want to sell tickets but you should be smarter than that. They have the fourth highest payroll in the A league and they are horrible. YOU SELL. You rebuild, and now is the time because alot of contracts are coming up. You are correct, but that $100 million just needs to be used more effectively. Contreras Dye Crede Iguchi Mackowiak Cintron MacDougal Ozuna Podsednik Erstad These guys take up around $35 million in the payroll, and would take up more in 2008 if they are on the team. That is over 1/3 of the payroll. Based on salary and production, Buehrle is a great deal.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 08:25 PM) All this from Dwight Shrute While on the subject Michael Scott = Kenny Williams in boosing morale? I hate to see it go there, but empty seats in 2008 are ugly. And then KW threatens to punish us by trading away our remaining "talent" unless we start showing up. QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 08:25 PM) Thats what she said! LOL, you guys are all over it.

QUOTE(quickman @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 08:22 PM) It appears we won the world series two years ago and we didn't have anyone with an NTC. It also appears we have a 100 million dollar payroll this year, minus a few million and we are close to last place. Losing Buerhle does not mean we will fall to last place and does not mean we will be in first. Quite frankly if this team is to get better we NEED to trade players now and get good young players in return. Buerhle brings us value and because our inor league system sucks which I have been saying for a long time and many many people disagreed with me every damn day, we are now in a position to trade one of our favorite players. Its ok, because if we do sign him we still will not have the team to win next year. Face the facts, with or without beurhle we will not win next year. So Kenny needs to make a big decision and that is do the whitesox start selling off piece meal for the next two years beginning now and acquiring players for the next 5 years. That is what is happening right now. If I am kw I trade Beurhle and garland, and crede and Dy. clean house and get the players you want. Its really the only way, otherwise you will have a big fat payroll, and a 4th place team. The problem is that you never trade quality starting pitching, because you will never get the value back in a trade. Look at the best teams in the league every year, there is one thing in common, top notch starting pitching. That is not a coincidence.

QUOTE(kyyle23 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 08:21 PM) I wanted to ask, but I didnt have the guts. I think RME has a special talent that we are not aware ofI have many, but that is for another time and another thread. I don't want to threadcrap (no pun intended).

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 08:18 PM) #3 ? Is that a combo platter or something that is not permitted to be discussed in threads?Yep, 1 + 2 = 3 Most people do a 3 even if they don't know it, or have control of it.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 08:14 PM) If Mark had just given Jerry the ball from the no hitter in front of the parade fans, he'd already have a new deal.Mark needs to give him a flaming bag of #2 - or #3 in a plastic bag.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 08:10 PM) I have no clue how JR and KW think they can get the talent level back up again to be playoff caliber.Hmm, lets see. First, only draft "safe" draft picks to safe contracts, don't sign any impact FA's because it will cost JR too much, don't deal with Boras clients, don't give any full NTC's, and don't sign any current players to below market deals - even when they concede demands. This team seems like it is one Grinder away from another World Series (->little league).

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 07:59 PM) The Q&A session at Soxfest should be overflowing with people lining up to question this crap. People seriously need to bring out the "FIRE KW" signs tomorrow before the ASB if that info is true. Also, the best thing to do would be to boycott Soxfest and have one rep show with a ton of questions. That would be hilarious.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 07:59 PM) The Q&A session at Soxfest should be overflowing with people lining up to question this crap. People seriously need to bring out the "FIRE KW" signs tomorrow before the ASB if that info is true. Also, the best thing to do would be to boycott Soxfest and have one rep show with a ton of questions. That would be hilarious.

If the ESPN info is correct, there is zero justification for the Sox not resigning Mark. That also means KW flat out lied his face off about the whole situation. The only way to save face now is to resign him, otherwise this is going to be the biggest mistake of the KW era (which hopefully ends soon).

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 07:15 PM) Wow. Your sarcastic posts are just flying over some heads today. Yeah I need to really use the green text. QUOTE(TheHolyBovine @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 07:25 PM) His peripherals are garbage, unlike MB. His decline will be steep and unforgiving as he ages.Note to self, do not get into a numbers battle with Kalapse, you will lose 99% of the time. I think I won once.

QUOTE(JDsDirtySox @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 05:44 PM) I don't know if anyone saw the postgame interview with MB today... but things don't look good. When asked the odds of him being here after the all star break, he said 50/50, but probably would lean towards getting moved. He also threw something in there about being discouraged and actually said something along the lines of going into Kenny and Rick Hahn about pulling the deal off the table. He said whatever is going to happen he would just like it to happen now. What does Mark have to do to get a Full NTC, throw a no-hitter? Its odd that KW talks about the future impact of a Full NTC, because that implies that he will be the GM for the foreseeable future. It must be nice with that type of leverage.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 04:32 PM) SSI....I don't think KW could have asked for a worse 30 hour span if he was set on trading Buehrle over the ASB in regards to how the fans would react to the trade.You're right. Fan sentiment is probably at an all-time high for Buehrle. However, his trade value in terms of performance is pretty damn high after that start, especially comparing the contrast to what the Twins did to the Sox pitching yesterday.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 04:27 PM) 5 games within 3rd place? Hell yeah, if we finish in 3rd this year, there better be a DVD after the season with highlights of our dramatic climb towards .500. I didn't think I needed green for that bold statement.

QUOTE(stretchstretch @ Jul 7, 2007 -> 04:20 PM) I can't think of one positive thing about being a Sox fan right now? Wins and losses are equally depressing, if that's possible.You're kidding right? It was a Buehrle quality start/win, a Jenks save, a Konerko HR, and we are now only 6 GB from the Twins. We can close to within 5 games with a win tomorrow.

A 3-1 dismantling of the Twinkies! Great game for Buehrle, in what might be his last start for the Sox. His ERA is down to 3.03. Konerko heating up with another dinger! If we win tomorrow, we don't lose the series! Hopefully KW can see what good starting pitching does. GO SOX!