LVSoxFan

Good news: we win. Bad news: WTF is with Thorton? Another one destined to be sent down? Good news: we win. Bad news: WTF is with Thorton? Another one destined to be sent down?

That's partially true. I watched that listless team 2nd half last year and a good part of this year and you will never convince me that team chemistry is not an essential part of it.

You guys apparently only want to talk stats and not the kind of intangibles that add to a team "chemistry." You can do that all you want, but the 2006 on paper were the best team in the league and yet they, and the 2007 Sox lack any chemistry resembling 2005 whatsoever. Dead men walking. Listless. I've already outlined what I think Rowand would bring to the team. You disagree? Fine. But don't go straw-manning me into some argument where I said Thome sucks, he's Sosa (WTF?!!) or that we're only losing because of him. Leave it at what it is: I would like to see Rowand back. Period. If it's a bust, well WE ALREADY SUCK so it can't hurt.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 05:02 PM) Funny how he wants to throw the straws around, yet he dances around the pitching staff. i.e. THE REASON WHY WE DIDN'T WIN LAST YEAR. I believe it's in SSI71's sig, but I love the quote that was made here a while ago: Are you really that f***ing dense, dude? You can't even admit it's an upgrade, dude? Despite the number being clearly better, it's still not an upgrade because the team didn't meet our expectations, dude? I also like how you are whining about it being a Rowand vs. Thome debate which was started with your unintenional flame baiting post (shades of whitesoxjosh,) and now you are dragging Brian Anderson's name into the argument. Clear your mind, and open your eyes, dude. Yeahright. It's apparent I can't DARE question Thome without being accused of "flame baiting", as you go absolutely nuts. Whatever dude. Like I even show up here to do that. Apparently everybody's entitled to your opinion, so we'll leave it at that. I'll just leave it at: I have no problem with Rowand coming back, no matter what you say. Period. BTW I'm not dancing around s***. The pitching performance has NOTHING TO DO WITH THOME'S BATTING. Who's dense now, dude?

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:55 PM) Are you kidding me? You want Thome to be a slap hitter? How about you factor in just how s***ty the White Sox pitching staff was in 2006 into this equation... If the 2006 White Sox pitchers pitched anywhere near their career averages, the White Sox probably win 100 games. Our lowest starters ERA was 4.27. Sigh. And where did I say I wanted Thome to be a "slap hitter"? WHAT slap hitters? We don't HAVE any slap hitters anymore. We have PULL hitters. HR hitters! Everybody swings for the damn fences. Somebody above made some snide remark about a team full of speedster slap-hitters, sarcastically. We have NEITHER. We don't HAVE speed. We don't have PERCENTAGE hitters. We have a bunch of big bombers who can park one in the upper deck but can't hit clutch, can't hit with men on base, and strike out on crap pitches. Right now at least. It's 2004, but even worse. And fine, we'll factor in just how s***ty the Sox' pitching was 2006. That caused Thome to bat s***ty second half how again? Pfft. Enough of this already. You guys are turning this into a supposed lynching of Thome, which it never was.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:44 PM) So Thome is the reason why the Sox aren't on fire right now? It's his fault the offense sucks? Nice straw man. Yeah, and look what that "upgrade" has got us. BTW, do you forget who replaced Rowand in CF? What was his batting average, dude? How did this turn into a Rowand vs. Thome batting comparison? That is not, nor was it, the point. Let's not forget: -Batting upgrade: Thome -Canceled out by batting of new CF: Anderson and our nine-hole guaranteed out. Done. Throw stats all you want. Oh look another strawman, nice. Would you like some straw hats for your straw men?

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:36 PM) See what? Your post was full of BS. Regardless of what Rowand does from this point on for this season or his career it has nothing to do with the nonsense you posted about Thome. Thome was a massive upgrade from our 2005 DH's. He's cheap, he's a power left handed bat (something the Sox have lacked since Ventura,) a future hall of famer, and he's a good clubhouse guy. By getting on base and mashing the ball, he greatly improves our offense much more than a guy who has little plate patience and one good year under his belt. I'm not saying that Thome is a bad player or a bad addition to the Sox. I'm just asking: where is this huge upgrade that he provided? I'm not even saying he promised that: Kenny did. KW said that the 2006 Sox were even better than 2005 and Thome was the major part of that. Well... It's not necessary to tear down Thome to build up Rowand, and that's not what I'm doing. But before you all start about how damn average and overrated Rowand is, realize that it cuts both ways. Thome has not exactly set the world on fire with the Sox since 2006 (2nd half at least). Period. You gonna argue that? QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:38 PM) Jim Thome created 122 runs last year, 72 more than Aaron Rowand. Jim Thome creates runs through walks and extra base hits. I you saying you wouldn't want a David Ortiz or Travis Hafner type player in the middle of your lineup to get on base and drive in runs? Because those 3 are incredibly similar. Perhaps you don't understand how a team is put together, and that's all right. If you truly believe that every f***ing hitter in your lineup should be a slap hitting speedster b**** like Nick f***ing Punto and Jason "I suck at life" Tyner then you don't know how an American League lineup is to be pieced together because 9 slaphitting b****es ain't winning s*** for you. Don't you think you're getting a little personal and a little insulting at this point? My belief is simple: I have no problem bringing Rowand back. Hey: Rowand AND Thome on the same team is a win/win. But apparently I'm not allowed to believe that without people like you piling on. Whatever dude. And whatever stats/philosophies you want to wave in my face, the fact is we have sucked ass since July 2006 and I'd like to hear about ways we're going to shake that up (i.e., perhaps Rowand or WHOEVER) and not defense of the status quo.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:12 PM) You are completely delusional. We'll see about that. QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 04:22 PM) Jim Thome batted .288 for the Sox and is a career .282 hitter. Aaron Rowand batted .288 or better for the Sox only once in his juiced 2004 year and is a career .282 hitter. If Thome doesn't hit for a "percentage," what does that say about Rowand? If you're questioning Thome's bunting skills, I really question your baseball knowledge. That's an Anne Maxfield argument. My argument is simple: what has Thome provided, seeing that he is supposedly the "upgrade"? Yeah I like watching his HR bombs too. What else has he provided? Those slap hits? Baserunning? His Go-Go White Sox attitude and clubhouse leadership? I'm not even slamming him. I'm telling some of you to open your eyes.

Excuse me for being harsh here, but I've had enough. Overrated? Overrated? I'll tell you who's overrated: Jim Thome. Coming off a WS championship season we got rid of a fan favorite, a clubhouse favorite, a textbook grinder and a guy who, to many, defined what the 2005 Sox attitude was all about. His hitting could be streaky, but I don't think anybody had problems with his outfield play and I specficially remember him putting on a goddamn outfield CLINIC in NY at Yankees stadium that year, where even A-Rod had to give him props. So we got rid of him and got... Jim Thome. Nothing against Jim Thome as a person--he's a class act--but what has he delivered? He was pounding them first half '06 and then faded away into non-factor. He can't hit clutch. He can't bunt or hit for percentage. Talk about the definition of feast or famine, HR or nothing. I can't count how many times he's been struck out pitching low & inside, and he's so predictable that the SS moves into RIGHT FIELD. This year? Pretty much the same so far. Oh, and he can't play the field. He is a batter only who can kinda play 1B. How this fell in with our smart/small/Ozzieball philosophy back then I never figured out, but if you asked me now, knowing now what we know, would I have made that trade? No way. So I'm really not that receptive to hearing how overrated Rowand is. As it is, it looks like we have two choices: try and save the season, or white flag it and build for the future. Rowand is an inexpensive way to attempt to former. Why not? I can't believe it wouldn't electrify both the fans and the clubhouse. You think his 2005 mates won't be thrilled to see him? Oh, and Thome will STILL BE HERE. Win/win for me. Thanks. DO IT.

No sarcasm whatsoever. I am all for bringing Rowand back, period. I think his contribution to the team went way beyond his measurable skills, and I think that's what everybody's forgetting as they look at him in fantasy baseball terms.

QUOTE(103 mph screwball @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 12:37 PM) Rowand could be the spark that gets this team going. His play will not single handedly make the Sox an offensive powerhouse. He might change the team's attitude enough and get guys like Crede in gear again. I think before the Sox white flag and blow the team up, Rowand would be a relatively inexpensive attempt to resuscitate this team. Hell, if it doesn't work, trade him again in July. I don't care what any stats show, this team has not been the same since he left. (insert your criticism of silly grinders here). If the Sox can be convinced that he would make a difference, then since baseball is mostly mental...it could work. If nothing else, since Aaron was such a fan favorite, there should be a PR and possibly attendance benefit of giving it a try. Bring the kid home. BINGO! WINNAH. I am 100% behind this idea for exactly the same reasons. I think Rowand, for his clubhouse attitude alone, could turn this team around, and the fans would go NUTS. Myself included. DO IT. Mac is a cheap price to pay.

I don't think anybody can claim with a straight face that, post-2005, we were all clamoring to get rid of Konerko, Dye, Crede, Uribe and/or Iguchi. The only one I remember everybody being down on heavily last year was, rightfully so, Pods. I was one of them. I was like: get rid of that motherf******--but thanks again for 2005, Scotty. Nobody could have anticipated last year's almost-MVP (Dye) being this bad for so long first half, or Crede (after finally breaking out in 2005) back to his 2004 ways, or Paulie back to his... what? 2003 form? So for that reason, I'm hardly going to take aim at KW for keeping those guys on. The bullpen, though? Yep, that was pretty much his creation, and if you were going to trade away a top starter (Freddy) and a top starting prospect (B-Mac)... it appears what he got for those trades went bust. Boom goes the dynamite, as somebody put it in another thread referring to something else. Let me throw something out there: KW hasn't made a decent trade post-2005. Think about it. What was the big trade post-2005? He got rid of A-Row to get Thome. Was that worth it? Think about it. That meant: a) You just took out a fan favorite and a proven team cheerleader, Aaron Rowand B) You did this immediately after winning the World Series with this squad--what happened to: if it ain't broke? c) Thome was fun for homers the first half of 2006 but quickly faded; he's been a non-factor this year as well, and he doesn't bunt or play smallball d) Brian Anderson was a bust and created a 9-hole Was that worth it? Don't get me wrong I love Thome and he's a class act and a gentleman, but were we really that better off with him and then BA in center than with keeping the 2005 team more or less intact? This year we kept Jenks (of course) and Thornton (despite his shaky year, I'm all for him) but unloaded B-Mac and Freddy for a crew of flamethrowers almost all if not all who have proven to be a bust. The only other potential culprit that nobody mentions is--gasp--Don Cooper. Although, like Ozzie, Don can only work with what KW provides him. Proven talents and even underrated ones like our starters seem to do fine with him (including Danks) so it's a mystery why the bullpen can't seem to get "fixed" by him. Unless they're unfixable. I'm not sure what the solution is here because I can't remember a year where the bullpen was this atrocious but at the same time we've got our overwhelming offensive woes. I don't know how you "fix" a bullpen at the beginning of June when you've already sent a bunch of guys down. As for Walker I can't think of any more excuses to make for him. Unless you want to try something weird for the team like sports psychologists, I would imagine somebody's gotta get fired soon. Hell at this rate KC could overtake us.

On Comcast they're showing that MacDougal since May 8 has an era of 15.00.

This is absolutely brutal. The moment Mac came in I knew we were toast. Why? I almost got on the game thread and posted "WHY CAN THIS GUY NOT THROW STRIKES?" He is all OVER the place. I'm backing off Ozzie on this one because: what does he have to work with? Who's he SUPPOSED to be calling in from the pen? He can only do so much with what he's got. Since we're having a pity party for managers this weekend, that has GOTTA suck: you're Ozzie and it's time to bring in the pen. Lose/lose/lose/lose. Sucks. THAT said, pen aside, the offense is nothing short of redonkulous. 0-50 against opponents' bullpens last 20 games? PATHETIC.

8.27 ERA for the bullpen for the past 20 games.

BTW Hawk just announced we have not had a hit since the third inning. Sound familiar? BTW we are 0-44 against relievers on this road trip. Amazing.

So out of curiosity, how many blown games for our bullpen this year so far?

For whatever it's worth, I have to jump on the defend Ozzie bandwagon at this point regarding the bullpen because what exactly are his choices? Who in the 'pen can actually shut anybody down at this point? You can't bring Jenks in in the 8th. That said: McDougal is to 2007 what Politte was to 2006.

QUOTE(southsideirish @ Jun 1, 2007 -> 11:08 PM) Don't you think he was speaking specifically about Barett who made a baserunning blunder either in this game or last game and then couldn't catch a pitch from Zambrano and proceeds to throw the ball into left field? I think he was and he was almost excusing Zambrano for his behavior or giving Zambrano an excuse as to why it happened. Can you imagine if this happened on the White Sox? Everyone here would be saying Ozzie has lost the team, he needs to go, blah blah blah. I can't imagine what would be going on if this happened with the White Sox, but most on here would be calling for Ozzie's head. On the other hand, it happens to our cross town rivals and most here "feel sorry for" Lou Pinella. Very strange. I see what you're saying about Ozzie, although I'm not one who's been bashing him this season or last. I meant that Pinella seems like a genuine guy, a dude, and geez how it must suck to have to be the manager of the Cubs. Yeah, he took the gig, but I'm sure they promised him a new beginning, what with the $300M payroll and Soriano and a rehabilitated Wood/Prior, etc. Yeah, I think he'll be gone after this year too (why not go back to the easy ESPN gig). That's a good point though: he's not pitching. He's not dropping fly balls or allowing passed balls behind the plate. There's only so much a manager can do. He can tinker with the lineup or try and motivate his guys but after a certain point it's up to them. So yes, I will keep that in perspective when we talk about the Sox. Good point. But what a mess on the North Side. Of course it's fun to see the Cubs flailing, but this is just UGLY.

I'd say if we can take the Yankees series, there's your turnaround.

If we could stick a shiv in the Yankees while they're here that would be a real confidence-booster.

Anybody see the postgame with Lou when he lost it at the end? Talking about just get him some damn players who can catch a ball and run bases? When you see this kind of disintegration somehow our Sox problems, bad as they are, seem minor. I feel bad for Pinella, I really do. Taking that gig is like taking the Captain gig of the Titanic.

Javy! Way to go. Well at least the bleeding stopped; for now. I'll take it.

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jun 1, 2007 -> 04:34 PM) Piniella said they went at it in the clubhouse too. DiegoTony that is the best pic ever! LOL!

QUOTE(shipps @ Jun 1, 2007 -> 04:11 PM) Iam sorry but some of you guys are nuts to want this guy anywhere near our team.He is a complete head case, do you really want to have to deal with him on a day to day basis?There is already enough jackasses on this team I dont care how great his "stuff" is. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! The man has a point...